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The Squire of Gothos - episode #18
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Bogmeister
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject: The Squire of Gothos - episode #18 Reply with quote

____________
________ Classic Star Trek: The Squire of Gothos


__________





In some respects, this was one sector of space that the Enterprise crew should have simply avoided.

They come across a strange planet but don't have time to thoroughly investigate. Before they can get on to other business, Sulu and then Kirk simply disappear off the bridge. A landing party follows them to the surface and encounter Trelane, a seemingly aristocratic man dressed in attire from centuries past, residing in an opulent castle.

But this Trelane demonstrates abilities of someone or something far beyond human abilities, and he doesn't register on McCoy's medical tricorder. (Uh-oh, just what are we dealing with here?)



The landing party manage to escape back to the ship, but like a bad cosmic penny, Trelane keeps popping back up. He brings them all back to continue his games, including some female companionship.

There's an exasperating, even infuriating aspect to this situation as the crew are, in essence, utterly helpless before such unbridled power — Spock describes it most accurately,

"Intellect without discipline, power without Cconstructive purpose."

There have been several episodes in which the crew encountered godlike beings. Beside the ones already mentioned above, another was Who Mourns For Adonais?, in which a literal Greek god, Apollo, attempted to dominate the Starfleet envoys.

This is known as a "dystheistic" theme and it probably was never more raw, more apparent than in this episode with Trelane, who — more than ever — represents the 'trickster god' here, like Loki.

______________


What really makes this a great episode is the highly entertaining, very memorable performance by guest star William Campbell as the all-powerful yet not all-knowing being. The actor himself added to the mystery: just who or what is this guy? Is he a god of some kind? Is he a version of the devil?

My favorite scene is Trelane's confrontation with Spock, a highlight of all the unfolding strange drama.



The answers to exactly what or who Trelane is are right in front of us the whole time — so, when we do learn the truth, it makes complete sense in view of Campbell's pitch-perfect acting. He indulges himself constantly, preening before some unknown audience, remarking on things with a flair which is infectious but not quite right — we can't pin it down at first, but there's something missing here.

Every few minutes, his tone becomes sinister and the crew now appears to be in serious danger. In a way, you can't take your eyes off him, always waiting to see what he does next. Actor John de Lancie captured that similar tone as Q on the Next Generation series.

BoG's Score: 8 out of 10


_Star Trek - John DeLancie compares Q to Trelane


__________




Extra Trek Trivia: Trelane's character is obviously an early version of Q, who was introduced 20 years later in the pilot for the TNG series. Q also had godlike powers — able to do virtually anything — and behaved like a cosmic imp.

In his Star Trek novel, Q Squared, author Peter David made the connection more definite. There, he wrote that Trelane indeed was a young Q. David also made connections to Gary Mitchell's power (Where No Man Has Gone Before). The novel is not considered canon, but offered intriguing possibilities.




_______ TOS-R 1x18: "The Squire of Gothos" Trailer


__________




BoG
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Krel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the episode, Spock states that it would have taken the images from earh 9 centuries to reach the planet. That means that the show was taking place in either the 26th, or 27th century.

David.
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johnnybear
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And not the late twenty first or twenty second as some have theorized due to comments made by Kirk and crew in the series! Laughing
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Pow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trivia for "The Squire of Gothos." } Writer Paul Schneider also wrote the equally fine episode "Balance of Terror."

Paul had trouble devising the climax for the story so he ended up using Richard Connell's short story The Most Dangerous Game.

Venita Wolf played the beautiful Yeoman Teresa Ross.

Barbara Babcock was the voice of Trelane's mother. She would do more voice over work for ST: TOS on the episodes "Assignment: Earth", "The Tholian Web", and "The Lights of Zetar".

She appeared on camera in the episodes "A Taste of Armageddon", and "Plato's Stepchildren."

Set designer Matt Jefferies was very proud of the castle set, more than any other set from season one.

Guest star William Campell objected to the first wig they brought to him for the scene when Trelane is playing a judge. The wig was a French period wig and not an English barrister wig as called for.

The Salt Vampire bodysuit from "The Man Trap" appears in Trelane's castle.

A terrific episode with William Campell's outstanding performance as the omnipotent child alien Trelane.
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johnnybear
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also not widely known is that Roddy McDowell nearly got the part of Trelane but was considered too camp for the role!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

I initially posted the comment below in the thread for TNG episode #26: The Neutral Zone as a reply to Krel's interesting theory about how The Squire of Gothos proved the various Star Trek series all took place in the 26th and 27th centuries — instead of the 23rd and 24th, which is what numerous sources state. Very Happy

I wondered if he was right, so I took a very close look at The Squire of Gothos to see if I could solve this riddle conclusively.

I think I did. Here's what I came up with. Cool
________________________________

Well, doggone it, David — you kinda got me on this one! The defense of your opinion is solid and logical . . . in it's own special way. Very Happy

However, in the interest of adding enjoyable and intelligent debates to All Sci-Fi, let's examine your assertion that 900 years have passed between the events Trelane "observed" and the current time the episode took place.


Krel wrote:
S.T. takes place in either the 26th, or 27th century. This is due to the 900 year time it would have taken for light from Earth to reach Gothos

I assume you're basing the distance on the fact that in the pre-credits scene, Kirk says the Enterprise is 900 light years from Earth. The light-year distance also is repeated later in the episode.





So, obviously you are correct that light coming from the Solar System would in fact take 900 years to reach Gothos. Very Happy

But here's the problem.

Could light traveling all the way from Earth to Gothos somehow be turned it images of selected events that Trelane could observe?

After all, even if it was technologically possible to do that with light waves, it assumes that they wouldn't be seriously distorted along the way by stars, planets, asteroids, and 900 light years of interstellar dust! Shocked






I suspect your initial theory was inspired by the comment the crewman in the landing party made when he tells Kirk that observing events from 900 hundred years in the past would be "what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough to — "





But Trelane interrupts him and says, "Ah yes! I've been looking in on the doings of your lively little Earth!"





He doesn't say how he accomplished this "looking in" on Earth . . . but I can prove that it wasn't done just by using 900-year-old light waves! Very Happy

For the moment let's assume that Trelane was able to construct such a "viewing scope" and observe a bird's eye view of the surface of Earth as it would appear from Gothos.

Unfortunately, he still couldn't learn all the things about Earth he mentions.

Why do I say that?

It's obvious! He couldn't HEAR anything that was said on Earth just by using his super-telescope! Laughing

And yet Trelane speaks French to crewman LaSalle, and then German to officer Yeager! So, how did he learn French, German, and English just by studying images created by 900-year-old light waves?






Here's another revealing clue. Trelane says, "You know, I admire your Napoleon very much."

David, how did he learn the names of all the famous people he speaks of, just from observing ancient light waves?

Consider also the statement Trelane makes when he says, "Oh, I did so want to make you feel at home. I'm quite proud of the detail." He gestures at the interior of the room and all it's decorations.






But how did he see detailed images of the interior of buildings with his super-telescope on Gothos?

It seems clear from all this that Trelane did NOT just observe Earth 900 years ago simply by looking through an impossibly powerful telescope which miraculously transform degraded light waves into sharp images with a clear audio and the ability to go into buildings to admire the decor! Rolling Eyes






Therefore, sir, I submit that you're mistaken when you assume that all of the Star Trek series took place 900 years in our future, just because this one lighthearted episode included a questionable premise that can't be logically explained. Confused

David, I suspect that right now you're thinking, "Hey, I never said he had a super-telescope!"

True enough . . . but the character in the episode did say something like that, and your whole argument is based on the assumption that Trelane's "observations" are 900 years old because he observed light waves that would take that long to reach him.

Trelane did, of course, "observed" Earth from 900 years ago . . . but NOT just by looking at centuries-old light waves, as you've asserted. Trelane somehow observed our HISTORY from 900 years ago, getting "up close and personal" with the people and the culture by receiving both sounds and visual images.

He could only have done that with his god-like powers, perhaps with the help of the device he had behind the mirror.

Frankly I think it more likely that he did what Q was capable of — instantly go to Earth, 900 years ago, and studying the people and the culture. That's really the only way he could be so knowledgeable about the history of the era.

And yet the poor silly dope thought it was Earth's present! Rolling Eyes

To Summarize: If Trelane only observed 900-year-old light waves from Earth, his observations would be limited to just what our own spy satellites can see — everything viewed from directly overhead!

And no audio!

Thus he would not know most of the information about Earth which he either stated or displayed in this home.

So, if his observations were done with his god-like powers, then it had nothing to do with light waves or the distance to Earth. Therefore his wacky notion that he had studied Earth in the present was . . . just stupidity. Very Happy

After all, he was just an unintelligent and immature child-like god-being who whined to his parents when he said at the end, "I just wanted to have a little fun! You never let me have any fun!"






However, David, I know that you are neither unintelligent nor immature. In fact, you were honest enough to admit you were obstinate. Very Happy

Krel wrote:
The [The Squire of Gothos] is the only episode to state a concrete timeline, so I will stick with the TV show, not some decades later retcon.

Dance with the one what brung ya'. Laughing

Fair warning, there's a very good reason that they put "Obstinate" on my name tag at a place I worked at.

And since the definition of obstinate is this —
________________________________

stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
________________________________

— I suspect that all the fun I've had poking holes in your theory probably won't convince you that you're mistaken in the statement below. Very Happy

I do respect that, sir. You just keep right on dancing with the one what brung ya'. Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My comments aren't about the images, it is about the time it would take the images to get there. So, no holes. Laughing

I never mentioned how Trelane got his information. I was just commenting on how long it would take light from our solar system to reach there. To tell the truth, I always assumed he used some other method, just for the reasons you stated.

We know that images and signals degrade with distance, so no matter how powerful the telescope, I seriously doubt you would be able to make out any details.

Although I haven't seen the episode in years, and I may be mistaken, but I remember that it was Spock that said it would take 900 years for the light from Earth to reach trelane's planet.

But your comments have convinced me of one thing. 900 years is the minimum time it would take light from that time period to reach Trelane's planet.

So Bud, you have pointed out that the episode could actually be taking place later, maybe much later than the 900 years!

See, you did change my mind. Laughing

David.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

You should watch the episode again. Refreshing your memory would be helpful and enjoyable. Very Happy

I actually did watch it yesterday will writing the post and making the screen shots.

As stated above, it was Kirk in the pre-credit scene who said they were 900 light years from Earth, and it was Yeager who told Kirk that Trelane's place looked like something you'd see if you had a "viewing scope" that could see the light from Earth 900 light years away.

(Both scenes are shown in the screen shots.)

But since the time it takes the light from Earth to get to Gothos has been logically eliminated as the means Trelane used to get his info about Earth, the whole 900 years thing is irrelevant to any discussion about this episode.

The Squire of Gothos takes place in the same time period as all the other episodes.

Face it, David. TOS takes place in the 23rd Century.

And that means that Kirk's quip in Tomorrow is Yesterday (which I also watched yesterday) is accurate. If they locked him up for 200 years (as the AF Security Policeman threatened to do), he'd be out just about the time he left his "present". Cool

PS: If your comment about SOG taking place even later was was a joke, I apologize for not getting it. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Face it, David. TOS takes place in the 23rd Century.

Nope. You want to take a humors quip as a concrete timeline, but not an actual stated timeline. 900 light years = 900 years, so not the 23rd century, but the 26th or 27th century.

David.
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Pow
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Nitpicker's Guide

At one point, Lieutenant DeSalle tries to get the drop on Trelane by sneaking up behind him with a phaser. Of course, Trelane sees DeSalle's reflection in the mirror and freezes the officer. I have a hard time believing that deSalle can't figure out that Trelane could see him. Didn't he even stop to consider that there is a huge mirror directly in front of him?

Note from me~ True. I'd simply have Trelane be able to sense what DeSalle was up to due to Trelane being a super form of life.

While deciding to destroy Trelane's mirror, Kirk asks if the machine would be the same one that is maintaining the friendly atmosphere? Spock replies that the machine maintaining the atmosphere would have to be much larger.

Who says?

When does size automatically denote capability?

Note from me~ True. Spock contradicts himself with this statement in the second season episode "The Changeling."Someone states that they are stunned that such a small object as Nomad is able to launch such crippling energy blasts at the Enterprise. Spock replies something along the lines that lack of size does not necessarily indicate lack of power.

Guest star William Campell steals the show on this episode. His acting is a real tour de force as he displays innocence, whimsy, menace, intelligence, and anger.

We see that the early visual effects are still struggling at times when we see on occasion that the planet of Gothos is transparent.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

___________________________________

Forgive me, David, but you're argument is flawed.
Sad

David wrote:
You want to take a humorous quip as a concrete timeline, but not an actual stated timeline.

No sir, there is no "stated timeline". Forgive me, but you're taking an unrelated fact and drawing a false conclusion.

As I've explained repeatedly, the fact that Gothos was 900 light years from Earth is absolutely irrelevant to the century in which the TOS episodes take place.

900 light years = 900 years. (Okay, right! But . . . so what?) Rolling Eyes

The light from Earth was not used by Trelane in any way, so neither the time nor the distance means a damn thing here. He's a Q — so he went to Earth's past and came back in the blink of eye with the knowledge he used to create his little kingdom.

I fear this simple fact has eluded you, my good fellow! Laughing.

Trelayne could have gone back to 1950 or 1776 or the Jurassic period — and it wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference as to when Star Trek took place!

On the same note, Gothos could have been located in the Alpha Centauri system, just four light years from Earth — but that wouldn't have meant Star Trek TOS takes place four years from now! Shocked

4 light years = 4 years. (And again . . . so what?)

Neither the time period he went to nor the distance to Earth have any baring on when Star Trek takes place.

With all due respect, David, I'll say it again: Star Trek TOS takes place in the 23rd century, and nobody doubts that except you! Shocked

Just to conclude this comment on a humorous note (my self-admitted "obstinate" friend), I created this image for you. And you might also take a look at the clever Yogi Bara quote in my signature. It seems to apply to you, as well. Laughing




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~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
At one point, Lieutenant DeSalle tries to get the drop on Trelane by sneaking up behind him with a phaser. Of course, Trelane sees DeSalle's reflection in the mirror and freezes the officer. I have a hard time believing that deSalle can't figure out that Trelane could see him. Didn't he even stop to consider that there is a huge mirror directly in front of him?

That's "tunnel vision", and it actually happens to people in real life, where they become so fixated on something that everything else get blocked out.

Lieutenant DeSalle didn't see the mirror because his entire attention focused on Trelane.

David.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
As I've explained repeatedly, the fact that Gothos was 900 light years from Earth is absolutely irrelevant to the century in which the TOS episodes take place.

900 light years = 900 years. (Okay, right! But . . . so what?) Rolling Eyes

Incorrect. It has everything to do with it. It is stated that the light would take 900 years to get there, and influence Trelane. That means that the Enterprise had to arrive there AT LEAST 900 years later, NOT 600.

Bud Brewster wrote:
The light from Earth was not used by Trelane in any way, so neither the time nor the distance means a damn thing here. He's a Q — so he went to Earth's past and came back in the blink of eye with the knowledge he used to create his little kingdom.

Okay now you're just making stuff up, THAT ISN'T IN THE EPISODE!. Q didn't exist in TOS. So he couldn't be a Q. There is no indication, or evidence in the episode that Trelane time traveled, OR even had that ability. NONE of that is in the show!

I'm one of those pesky, inconvenient people that subscribe to the belief that if it isn't on the screen or in the episode, then any supposition about what could happen or be, means NOTHING to the production. It's just a fun exercise that holds no validity to the movie or TV episode.

So, 900 or 900+ years it is.

David.
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:

Barbara Babcock was the voice of Trelane's mother. She would do more voice over work for ST: TOS on the episodes "Assignment: Earth", "The Tholian Web", and "The Lights of Zetar".

She appeared on camera in the episodes "A Taste of Armageddon", and "Plato's Stepchildren."

She also voiced Isis the cat's meows and growls in "Assignment: Earth."

As for the debate over how far in the future Star Trek TOS takes place -- can we just agree that the show was inconsistent in that area? And in a lot of other things as well.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nonsense , "900 light years" is irrelevant as far as the Enterprise goes. Warp drive is clearly faster than then the speed of light. In fact each designation "warp two" "warp three" etc are multiples of the speed of light.

Trelane's castle is set from the 15th to 17th century décor so if he viewed that in "real time" to him it would place his "now" to the about the 23rd century or...900 years later than his "when".

Although I would argue that his "playpen" was located somewhere outside of our concept of time and space.

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