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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2948 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Bud wrote: | Wow, David, you've shed new light on the beginnings of the Id monster's attacks! It didn't begin when the Bellerophon crew "voted to return to Earth", as I've always thought! It began when the crew starting assembling the subspace transmitter — exactly like it did in the movie! Shocked |
I always thought that the reason they voted to return to Earth was because some of them (possibly the ones working on a communication device!) were killed by the Id Monster. Just like Quinn was killed because HE was working on the same thing! Quinn's death was a reoccurance of the Bellerathon ones. Eventually everyone was "torn to pieces", except the last three, who were killed also when the Bellerathon took off.
I also think that the "planetary force" expressed from Morbius's subconscious could take whatever form necessary. For example, when it "vaporized" the Bellerathon it may have just been manifested as a ball of explosive energy blowing up the propulsion elements of the ship. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Gord Green wrote: | I also think that the "planetary force" expressed from Morbius's subconscious could take whatever form necessary. For example, when it "vaporized" the Bellerathon it may have just been manifested as a ball of explosive energy blowing up the propulsion elements of the ship. |
Gord, I'm so glad to hear you say that! I completely agree.
We know the Id monster was smaller when it entered the ship during it's first visit than it was when it attacked later on, because we see it opening that small round hatch near the sleeping quarters of the crew.
And because the hatch was so small, the Id monster obviously didn't strictly adhere to whatever shape is took from moment to moment.
And it left no footprints when it snuck past the guards who heard it breathing. Nor did it bend the steps, which I don't think actually "bent", they were just designed to give a little under the weight of the people who used them (for reasons I can't guess).
The only reason we even think the Id monster was similar in form during that second invasion was the brief scene of it being somewhat outlined by the energy fence, along with the shape of the footprints and the plaster impression which Doc made from them.
But more importantly, you're absolutely right that the attacks on the Bellerophon and its crew might not have involved a manifestation even remotely like the Id monster! It all depended on what action or consequence the machine decided Morbius was subconsciously "asking" for.
So, your wonderful description of the Bellerophon's final destruction is bang on target (no pun intended.) _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel Guest
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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The more frustrated Morbius became, the larger, stronger and violent the ID manifestation became.
As Adams said, the machine could send matter in any form to anywhere on the planet. It would have been very easy for the machine to put a bomb on the Bellerophon.
David. |
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Maurice Mission Specialist
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 485 Location: 3rd Rock
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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It's just the writer/archivist in me that prefers to clearly distinguish between fact ("this happened") and speculation ("I think that this happened"). As a fer-instance, I once saw someone state that a Ralph McQuarrie concept for the Enterprise for the aborted 1977 Phil Kaufman Trek film was "based on" the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber, which it bears a but of a resemblance to. I pointed out what while that's logical supposition it's still supposition and not factual.
People often use the same language to describe both which leads to confusion. Qualifiers get filed off. Thus the internet is full of opinion stated and repeated as gospel fact, and that gets my dander up. ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) _________________ * * *
"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2948 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with you Maurice, but if you look at my and Buds' posts you'll see we used "I think..", "I thought.." and "I believe..." to present our ideas. All modifiers indicating speculation not facts. Hopefully we logically speculate based on facts and dialogue presented by the script and movie and not presented as factual.
Perhaps Krel should have said "I think the more frustrated Morbius became, It appeared the larger, stronger and violent the ID manifestation became. "
The purpose is to raise discussion based on our extrapolations, not to present anything else. We know that it's "Just a movie" and has no obligation to present a "backstory".
It's just FUN ! _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Krel Guest
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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Gord Green wrote: |
Perhaps Krel should have said "I think the more frustrated Morbius became, It appeared the larger, stronger and violent the ID manifestation became. " |
Nope, not at all. It is perfectly obvious in the movie, that the more frustrated, angry and threatened Morbius felt, the larger and more violent the attacks became, and the physical characteristics of the ID got larger and had more impact.
Gord Green wrote: |
It's just FUN ! |
Very true, and I am having fun.
David. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Krel wrote: | It is perfectly obvious in the movie, that the more frustrated, angry and threatened Morbius felt, the larger and more violent the attacks became, and the physical characteristics of the ID got larger and had more impact. |
Yes indeed, David.
As you stated, the Krell machine responded to Morbius' subconscious anxieties with more drastic actions as his fear of loosing the things he loved most became stronger.
The filmmakers who produced Forbidden Planet were excellent storytellers, and they crafted the film to make important points like that crystal clear. It's a big part of why we love the movie so much.
Fordidden Planet isn't just a string of events that connect with each other to form a plot. It's also a series of intriguing interconnected concepts, and each concept is a solid foundation on which additional concepts and consequences can be surmised.
The speculation that reveals those additional concepts is a mental exercise which some people find extremely enjoyable. Frankly I care very little for any movie that doesn't provide me with fertile ground which let's me raise a crop of new ideas!
And that's where the fun comes in. ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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________________________________
Page 51 of the script is the rare exception to the fact that many scenes differ greatly from the film. The dialogue on page 51 is almost word-for-word as the scene when the three guards are chastised by Commander Adams after the clystron frequency modulator is sabotaged.
But the moment the scene with Chief Quinn and Adams is over, both the dialogue and description of the action differ greatly from the movie!
First of all,page 52 begins with additional dialogue between Doc and Adams about why Morbius would sabotage the subspace transmitter. It's brief, but interesting.
And it takes place as the two men descend the "spiral staircase" that Cyril Hume envisioned the C-57-D having, which extended from the upper level of the ship all the way down to the ground!
Hume's version of the ship did not have the three stairways, and the initial production drawings indicate that the C-57-D was going to adapt Hume's concept of this design!
On page 28 of my Cinefantastique post (image #25) you'll find the preproduction drawings shown below.
I love the idea of a spiral staircase that extends from the top level of the ship right down down the ground. But those three magnificent ramps in the final design (one of which was a conveyor belt we never see in the final film), are even better.
25
![](https://i.imgur.com/hioFcSh.jpg) _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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________________________________
Well, folks here's the biggest surprise yet! The swimming pool scene has some rather shocking differences from the movie. Read page 56 below and hang onto you socks!
That's right, guys. In the script, Altaira didn't invite Adams to join her in the pool. He tells her he wants to join her!
Furthermore, he doesn't worry about not having his bathing suit, because he's wearing THIS version of the uniform . . . and he simple strips down to the shorts!
___________________
After Adams dives into the pool and swims over to Altaira, he looks down into the water . . . and realizes that she is buck naked!
About the only similarity between Hume's written version of the scene and the filmed version is the fact that Altaira does indeed say, "What's a bathing suit?"
But in the script, her reply is not to Adams' comment that he can't join her because he didn't bring his bathing suit, it's a response to Adams' exclamation "Where's your bathing suit?"
The dialog after she gets dressed — in which she talks about the subjects her father has taught her — is a bit longer than in the movie, and it's another example of how she's unfamiliar with things related to sex and romance (read page 58 and you'll see what I mean).
But when it gets to the part where she says that everything she knows about biology is "just theory" and Adams plants that famous kiss on her, there's something very important missing from the scripted version at that particular moment.
The kiss!
Cyril Hume describes the two characters moving closer as if to embracing each other, but then Altaira sees the tiger "prowling through the shrubbery" behind Adams, and she cautions him not to move because "he doesn't know you."
But the tiger charges at the two, and Adams blasts it.
What follows next will delight the folks who like the theory Doc proposes, concerning the unicorn myth and the idea that Altaira's emerging sexuality gives her the ability to sooth the savage beast.
Consider this surprising scene.
So, the tiger charges before Altaira gives any indication whatsoever that she's been "sexually awakened", but after Adams lays a big old smackeroo on her, she suddenly understands why she lost her "power"!
Wow . . . that's quite different from what we see in the movie, not to mention how we've interpreted it all these years. In fact, the movie version itself is the subject of spirited debates, with some folks thinking the tiger objected to Adams' familiarity with Altaira.
Others (like me) consider the tiger to be a sort of "mini-ID monster" that the Krell machine directed to attack Altaira because her behavior indicated she was disobeying her father's wishes by forming a relationship with Adams.
However, my theory is hard to defend, because it suggests that the Krell machine reacted to something that would have angered Morbius if he were watching and knew what was happening!
Since that's not the case, we'd have to assume that the machine was aware of how Morbius would react if he was aware of the situation, and so the machine acted in accordance with his strong feelings in the matter.
I have to admit, guys, even to me that's sounds like a colossal stretch! It's inconsistent with the other situations where the Krell machine reacted to Morbius strong anxieties, either while he was sleeping or when he was extremely angry — such as in the climax when the Id monster attacks the trio in the lab.
What do the rest of you think of this new revelation concerning Cyril Hume's original concept?
But wait a minute! I just realized that there's one very significant scene involving the Id monster when Morbius was neither asleep nor extremely angry!
While Morbius was calmly giving the tour to Adams and Ostrow, the Id monster penetrated the ship's energy fence, snuck into the ship, and ripped poor Quinn's body to pieces!
Then again, if we consider the fact that the attack actually took place during this scene —
— shortly after the men had returned from the tour and Adams informed Morbius that the United Federation of Planets would have to take control of the Krell complex, Morbius was indeed angry and upset!
So, the machine obviously learned from Morbius mind that this threat to his cherished lifestyle hinged upon Adams contacting Earth and reporting the monumentous scientific discovery. And earlier sabotage on the clystron frequency modulator hadn't been enough to stop this, because Quinn was now repairing it.
Thus it became necessary to kill Quinn.
It's important to note that it was the Krell machine that chose this course of action, because Morbius was not even aware of who Quinn was or that he was repairing the device. In fact, Adams only told Morbius about the sabotaged component in Morbius' study, just before the tour began.
Therefore, the machine can somehow gain the information it needs to plan and execute actions it decides will serve the subconscious wish Morbius has to stop what Adams threatens to do.
And just how, you may ask, does this relate to the unexpected tiger attack?
If Morbius has been growing increasingly upset about the possibility that Altaira is developing strong feelings for Adams (and increasingly resentful towards his daughter for disobeying him), the machine might have determined to take action at the moment the two were together.
Whether or not the machine could sense the growing romantic feelings of the couple is debatable . . . but still possible, I guess. ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2948 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like the bathing scene was changed for a couple of reasons.
First of all it was clumsely written and very out of character for Adams. The Studio Censors or standards and practices department may very well have "red lined" the sequence. Secondly.....Well.….Leslie DID look dorky in those shorts!
The actual results as shot and in the movie was (IMHO) perfect!
I believe that most of the shortened dialogue and excised scenes was done to speed up the film and have a shorter run time. We do know from the few deleted scenes available that at least some of those scenes were shot on film. I think they sacrificed characterization in the close editing. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Your analysis is spot-on, Gord. And I certainly agree with this statement.
Gord Green wrote: | I think they sacrificed characterization in the close editing. |
The deleted scene that includes the ship at night and the two officers discussing the day's events should have been left in the theatrical release version. It demonstrate the close friendship between Adams and Ostrow, and this would have added to the effectiveness of Ostrow's tragic death scene. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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________________________________
On page 62 we get Morbius' lecture in his study about the history of the Krell. Notice the last line in the excerpt below.
Hot damn, another revelation about the landscape around the Morbius home and the fact that one of the production sketches showed it embedded in the side of a tall, jagged cliff.
But Morbius states that the house and the surrounding area are "foothills" composed of "excavated material" from an engineering project. So the drawing above doesn't conform that description.
However, the two other preproduction drawings we've seen DO take that concept into account. Note the rounded shape of the hill just beyond the plateau in which the house is embedded, as well as another rounded shape in the foreground.
The drawing below is an overhead view of the house design shown above.
It even labels the two round areas as slag hills.
I couldn't find a definition for the term "slag hill", but the term slag heap is defined this way.
A slag heap is a hill made from waste material, such as rock and mud, left over from mining.
So, the "foothills" that were supposed to be part of the land around the Morbius house were not natural formations, even though 200,000 years of geological processes would have altered them to some degree.
But the drawing above indicates that the house was embedded in a natural plateau which was itself flanked by two "slag hills" that fit Morbius description.
Obviously the MGM art department (headed by Arthur Lonnigan) liked the dramatic alien landscape Henri Hillnick created around the house and the graveyard, and so Henri didn't include anything remotely like a "range of foothills [composed of] excavated material . . . "
Henri also neglected to embed the house in the side of hill or a cliff — which is unfortunate in view of the fact the house itself was designed to be on the same level as the tunnel that led to the Krell lab. In fact, the floor level of Krell lab is actually several feet higher than the tunnel, and therefore higher than the house as well.
Just for fun, I modified the original matte painting below —
— to show the house joined with a nearby cliff. (Click on image to see a 1600 pixel version.)
But even with this modification, Mr. Hillinick's beautiful painting doesn't present a landscape around the house that includes foothills created by piling up a large amount of excavated material. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17164 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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________________________________
And just what did those mysterious Krell really look like?
Well, George Folsey (the film’s cinematography) was interviewed for the amazing Cinefantastique article, and he
explained why the steps leading up to the Krell door had a smooth ramp in the middle.
“The Krell were originally frog-like in nature, with two long legs and a big tail. It was never shown, but it was indicated in the original screenplay that the ramps between the steps were designed to accommodate their dragging tails.”
I'm puzzled by the fact that this screenplay doesn't mention the ramp of the idea that the Krell were frog-like creatures with tails. We know that this script has many difference in the dialogue and the scene descriptions, so perhaps Mr. Folsey was remembering one of the many revisions that took place before the script was finalized and the film was shot.
However, in this early draft Cyril Hume had a few ideas of his own, and he expressed them in a scene which showed Doc pondering the Krell physiology after Morbius suggested that Adams and Ostrow consider the shape of the "characteristic arch" of the Krell doorways.
I did the drawing below of a made-up alien back in the 1990s, and it might also be considered as a candidate for the Krell appearance. I think Doc would react to my draw the way he reacted to the ones he drew!
If this is the appearance of the Krell, nobody could ever accuse one of marrying for looks!
Someone posted a comment recently which stated we don't really know how long the Krell tunnel is. Actually, however, we know exactly how long the set of the tunnel is (both from scenes in the movie and the actual blueprints). It only extends a few dozen yards from the first 45° bend just after the door to Moribus' study. all the way to the steps leading up to the lab.
And that's exactly what Cyril Hume states in the script.
Cryil Hume's mental image of the Krell lab is startlingly different from what we see in the movie! And I don't quite know what to make of his description of the Krell chairs.
The art department certainly didn't make the lab look like Mr. Hume described it when he wrote that it was not "fantastically equipped"!
And notice that even though the chairs are "wide", as Hume states in the script, they have no armrests at all — much less four separate ones at right angles!
But the gap between the two separate chair backs is consistent with idea that the Krell had tails . . . although the tail on my own alien drawing is obviously much too wide.
Unless of course I drew an obese Krell who desperately needs to hit the gym! Slimming down would certainly improve his appearance!
One second thought, no it wouldn't . . . ![Sad](images/smiles/icon_sad.gif) _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel Guest
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Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Judging by the height of the Krell safety railings, the Krell had a low center of gravity. Perhaps somewhat hunchbacked. It is interesting that the staircase to the lab had no safety railing, but the short steps in the lab did.
The line in the script about the chair having four armrests, combined with Morbius's comment in the movie when working the Krell devices, wishing he had four arms, indicates that they intended for the Krell to have four arms.
David. |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2948 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think I am not alone in giving Bud a great big THANK YOU!!! for uploading the script!
There are LOTS of variations in it from the movie as released, some hints of that is shown in the "deleted" scenes we've seen. I think that many other changes are the result of "on set" changes and editing.
As to the physical nature of the Krell…..I believe the appearance of the Id monster gives us a clue. While it is definitely not "human" it could well represent of a Krellian influence mashed up with human ones. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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