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Eadie
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 Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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An obsolete meaning of "educator" is “lead, draw or take out”.
An older meaning of "plastic" is "of being moulded; malleable, flexible, pliant".
Now combine the two meanings. What does that suggest?
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Eadie has finally managed to make sense of the term "plastic educator"! 
| Eadie wrote: | An obsolete meaning of "educator" is “lead, draw or take out”.
An older meaning of "plastic" is "of being moulded; malleable, flexible, pliant".
Now combine the two meanings. What does that suggest? |
She's absolutely right! 
The Krell "education" machine would do the kinds of things a truly advanced piece of technology would; it actually improved the mental processes of the young students' brains while "downloading" knowledge directly.
As Eadie suggested, it reshapes the brain to make it comprehend new and more complex concepts.
Morbius said, "I gather that one of their own young, comparable to a seven year old child, was normally expected to send that [gauge] all the way to the top."
Remember, Morbius was speaking the lines which Cyril Hume wanted us to hear, the screenwriter's own ideas about the Krell, delivered through the character. So, this is one of those cases where we'd be mistaken to think maybe Morbius was wrong. (Plot exposition . . . delivered through dialog.)
As for the brain boost, I'm quite certain that the idea was for the Krell kids to routinely receive beneficial brain stimulation, in addition to the rapidly learned implanted knowledge they were being "taught".
What happened to Morbius, Doc, and the Bellerophon skipper was basically an "overload" caused by those poor little human brains being incapable of safely receiving the benefits of the machine . . . which the Krell kids could easily do!
Gentlemen, bear in mind that we're trying to define the properties of of an advanced piece of technology which served a race of super-intelligent beings. We shouldn't hesitate to give it any abilities which the film hints at.
That's why I'm so adamant that it does everything I've described . . . and probably much more! 
___________ Forbidden planet Krell IQ machine
__________ 
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:20 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Gord Green
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Joined: 06 Oct 2014
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Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Not to change the subject...….
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Krel
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| Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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It may have been called a Plastic Educator, not because it implanted knowledge, but because it is a tool, where the Krell were taught, learned, developed, practiced and exercised the skills they would need to operate the machine. The more they used it, the more it exercised their minds, increasing their intellects. The Krell school classrooms may have been packed with these devices.
As was pointed out, Humans are not Krell. A human using the Plastic Educator might receive a very dangerous shortcut to a larger intellect that the Krell did not receive.
It is interesting that Morbius constantly used the Plastic Educator for two decades, but did not receive any further boosts in intellect.
Could it be that Humans only receive the boost on their first use?
Could it be that the degree of increase depends on the length of exposure. Morbius had crew mates to shut it down when he collapsed, limiting his initial exposure. Doc Ostrow was on his own, and could leave the switch open for a longer (and lethal) exposure.
The Plastic Educator just could have been an exercise machine for the Krell brain.
David. |
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Maurice
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 485
Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Eadie wrote: | | Maurice wrote: | … Rotokas of Bougainville has only 12 characters. Languages with fewer sounds often have longer words (humuhumunukunukuapua'a anyone?) to provide a rich enough vocabulary.
Silbo Gomero from the Canary Islands is a reduced form of Spanish which is whistled and not spoken and only has about 10 sounds (3 vowels and 7 consonants) (link). There's no reason to expect a wholly alien language like Krell to work at all like any human language, let alone map to sounds we can hear or which would feature concepts like case. |
These are poor examples as neither exhibits Dr. Morbius' description of a " … vast, but logical … alphabet … |
Thiose are perfectly apt examples in response to the posted images preposterously showing the Krell alphabet mapped to western letters and human sounds, even including concepts like upper and lowercase and base 10 math.
The point is exactly what I said: that it's ludicrous to assume that alien languages like Krell would share features with human languages when even human languages are so radically different one one another...and we humans all have the same kinds of brains, speech centers and anatomy.
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Eadie
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:53 am Post subject: |
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I still insist that we can only go only what what Cyril Hume wrote and by what Arthur Lonergan and his team showed.
In fact if we were to go by the human languages alone the range is near infinite!
The human voice consists of sound made by a human being using the vocal tract, such as talking, singing, laughing, crying, screaming, shouting, yelling etc. The human voice frequency is specifically a part of human sound production in which the vocal folds (vocal cords) are the primary sound source. (Other sound production mechanisms produced from the same general area of the body involve the production of unvoiced consonants, clicks, whistling and whispering.)
Dr. Morbius was a philologist — a specialist:
Philology is the study of language in oral and written historical sources; it is the intersection of textual criticism, literary criticism, history, and linguistics. Philology is more commonly defined as the study of literary texts as well as oral and written records, the establishment of their authenticity and their original form, and the determination of their meaning. A person who pursues this kind of study is known as a philologist.
As for human languages over 400 symbols NOT including special marks (e. g. punctuation) are used. Not knowing the vocal range of the Krell made his job nearly impossible.
The only clues to the physical nature of the Krell are the archways, the seats. the controls (their size and placement and shape and numbers). the lighting of the lab (the colors used indicate their preferred color rang and psychology), the ramp & stairs (general stride, height, width, etc.). The Good Doctor apparently new nothing of these things.
These are only the "tip-of-the-iceberg" of his ignorance.
Let us not make the same assumptions and mistakes.
[FYI: I am a very good student in the U of W. My GPA is 4.0.]
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Art Should Comfort the Disturbed and Disturb the Comfortable.
Last edited by Eadie on Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
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Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | It may have been called a Plastic Educator, not because it implanted knowledge, but because it is a tool, where the Krell were taught, learned, developed, practiced and exercised the skills they would need to operate the machine.
The Plastic Educator just could have been an exercise machine for the Krell brain.
David. |
Let me get this straight. The machine taught the kids the skills they needed to . . . operate the machine. Sounds a bit circular. 
Seriously, David . . . that's your idea an educational device developed by a race who were a million years ahead of humankind?
You don't believe it actually boosted intelligence (even though it did exactly that for Morbius). You don't believe it implanted knowledge directly (even though Doc solved the mystery of the Krell machine in two minutes flat).
Geez, David, does that oversize PS2 do anything remotely impressive?
And this just occurred to me. If the Plastic Educator was operated by the thoughts of the user, is it really so hard to believe that it could, in a sense, "talk back" to the brain it was hooked up with?
Remember, the Krell machine was "operated by remote control, operated by the electromagnetic impulses of individual Krell brains." If had wi-fi. Gee, what futuristic idea! 
And if we follow that thought to it's logical conclusion, we might consider the possibility that the Krell had no spoken language at all! They communicated with each other by telepathy.
That idea makes all this discussion about how their language sounded completely unnecessary. Besides, Morbius just said he'd decoded their written alphabet. He never said a word about their spoken language.
Egyptologists can read hieroglyphics. But nobody knows what the Egyptian language sounded like. (I looked it up.)
So, guys, let's stop thinking small and really ponder what a teaching machine could do if it was designed by a race who was "a million years ahead of humankind".
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Krel
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | Let me get this straight. The machine taught the kids the skills they needed to . . . operate the machine. Sounds a bit circular. |
Not at all, although I may not have worded it correctly. Any device you use, is a learning process. The more you use it, the more proficient you become in it's use. That is what I mean by the machine teaching.
I don't deny that the machine boosts intellects, that is stated in the movie. I'm saying that the process may have been different with the Krell, than with humans.
No, I don't believe that the machine implanted knowledge in the user. There is just no evidence, or even any indication of such an action in the film.
I do believe that it was Doctor Ostrow's expanded intellect that allowed him to piece everything together. He said that he registered much higher on the scale than Morbius. This allowed him to see how everything fit together. Everything he saw, everything he heard, and experienced. He was able to fit it together and make conclusions from the pieces. He never mentioned (although he didn't have much time) that he had any knowledge implanted, which would have been an important thing to add.
In a way, his expanded intellect made him a super Sherlock Holmes.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | No, I don't believe that the machine implanted knowledge in the user. There is just no evidence, or even any indication of such an action in the film. |
I'll admit that my idea is extrapolated from other clues, mostly from our knowledge that the Krell were a million years ahead of us, both in their evolution and their technology.
That said, are we really content to believe that an ultra-high tech teaching device with that kind of pedigree did nothing more than make images inside a Plexiglas pyramid?
Everything you said about the way the Plastic Educator worked was (forgive me) just a list of vague and generic references to what students do. 
| Quote: | | . . . the Krell were taught, learned, developed, practiced and exercised the skills they would need to operate the machine. |
Seriously, you don't think that "a race of creative geniuses" (as Adams described them) who were million years ahead of us wouldn't come with incredibly new ways to do the things you said above?
All I'm saying, David, is that since we know the Krell developed some astounding machines, I don't think we need any "proof" in the movie that the Plastic Educator would be as amazing as everything else we know about the Krell.
Why should we let the limitations of a 98-minute movie from 1956 prevent us from speculating about the Krell — exactly the way any intelligent and imaginative science fiction enthusiasts should?
For Pete's sake, David, it's a Krell teaching machine — which means we probably couldn't even imagine all the things it could do! Morbius said the Krell knowledge was so vast that mankind was "not fit, as yet, to receive such knowledge, such almost limitless power."
For that reason, I can't understand why you feel so reluctant to ponder ALL the possibilities of an "ultimate Krell teaching machine".
I mean, so what if the movie never spelled out exactly how it worked it's wonders on the brilliant Krell children it was turning into god-like super-beings? But what we DO know is that if the Krell did it, by God they did it in a way that would knock our socks off!
With all do respect, David, your pedestrian version of the Plastic Educator just doesn't fit in with what we know about "this almost divine race" who created a machine which could instantly materialize anything that they mentally asked for!
And I hate say it, but the statement below by you illustrates a serious flaw in your logic.
| Krel wrote: | | In a way, [Doc's] expanded intellect made him a super Sherlock Holmes. |
David, I'm a huge Sherlock Holmes fan — but his methods were only successful when he used his intelligence AND his detailed knowledge of a situation to reason out things which happened, even though he wasn't a witness to the event. He studied everything from the color of the ash of different tobaccos to the scratches on a pocket watch which proved the owner was an alcoholic!
THAT'S why I'm convinced that Doc was given a wealth of new knowledge which Morbius did not have, and that's why Doc was quickly able to solve the true nature of the Krell machine.
Your idea that he accomplished this just by being smarter simply doesn't work, because Morbius knew MUCH more about the Krell than Doc did!
I've said this before and I'll say it again; intelligence alone doesn't make a person able solve a problem! As Sherlock often said, "I need data, Watson! I cannot make bricks without clay!"
Think of it this way; what would be most incredible invention in all history concerning the expansion of people's IQs and their ability to rapidly learn new facts, new skills, and new concepts?
Obviously the answer is the same kind of Plastic Educator I've been pitching right here!
And if my concept is the absolute best WE can think of, I believe the Krell did it at least that well — if not better! I'm basing this on the way the movie describes the Krell — a race who developed technology we can't even imagine!
Heck, the last thing we should do is say, "Well, I can imagine a device which would teach that way . . . but I don't think the Krell could do it!"
Don't sell the Krell short just because Cyril Hume didn't pack the movie with a lot of details the story didn't need. Like any good writer, he left some fun things for the rest of us to do.
So . . . by gum, let's have some fun!
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed May 04, 2022 9:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Krel
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| Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | Everything you said about the way the Plastic Educator worked was (forgive me) just a list of vague and generic references to what students do. |
Correct. The Krell were students learning how to use the machine.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | With all do respect, David, your pedestrian version of the Plastic Educator just doesn't fit with what we know about "this almost divine race" who created a machine which could instantly materialize anything that they mentally asked for! |
What we know of the Krell, is what Morbius wanted us to know. Which isn't much, but a person with a massively enhanced intellect could see much more.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | THAT'S why I'm convinced that Doc was given a wealth of new knowledge which Morbius did not have, and that's why Doc was quickly able to solve the true nature of the Krell machine.
Your idea that he accomplished this just by being smarter simply doesn't work, because Morbius knew MUCH more about the Krell than Doc did! |
As Doctor Ostrow said, Morbius was too close to the problem, plus he also had the handicap of his Id not letting him see the connections. If he could see the connections, then with him actually being a moral person, it would tear him apart. But Doctor Ostrow didn't have that handicap, he could see all of the threads without interference from his Id. Doctor Ostrow was a medical Doctor, with a high IQ, BEFORE the brain boost. He was used to solving problems with sketchy information. He knew how to use any information he had to render a diagnosis.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | I've said this before and I'll say it again; intelligence alone doesn't make a person able solve a problem! As Sherlock often said, "I need data, Watson! I cannot make bricks without clay!" |
I agree, there was an episode of "The Prisoner" where they were testing a method of imparting knowledge to people. But having the knowledge didn't mean that the people knew how to used the knowledge. But a person with greatly enhanced intellegence would see things an average person couldn't. He could see the data, he had the makings for the clay, he just had to bake it.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | As Doctor Ostrow said, Morbius was too close to the problem, plus he also had the handicap of his Id not letting him see the connections. If he could see the connections, then with him actually being a moral person, it would tear him apart. But Doctor Ostrow didn't have that handicap, he could see all of the threads without interference from his Id. |
You mentioned earlier that I was proposing things there was no evidence for in the story.
Forgive me, but that seems to be what you're doing now.
There's absolutely nothing in the story to suggest that Morbius' subconscious mind was secretly hiding his involvement with the Id monster from his conscious mind.
This is an issue that has bothered me for years. People don't seem to realize that the only change the Plastic Educator made in Morbius was to make his mind (both conscious and subconscious) stronger than normal.
But I think you're mistaken to suggest that "his Id was not letting him see the connections". Despite the fact that Morbius stated he had troubling dreams during his earliest time on Altair 4, this was not caused his subconscious blocking anything from his conscious because "if he could see the connections . . . it would tear him apart."
I think the story is clear about the fact that he had absolutely no reason to think he was in any way connected with the Bellerophon tragedy.
However, Morbius' statement about the troubling dreams during the Bellerophon episodes does bring up a new and interesting idea.
We've always assumed that his dreams were just the result of his frustration about being forced to leave Altair 4 — but the Krell machine overreacted violently to his urgent desire to stay.
But is it also possible that there was some kind of "feedback" from the machine when it responded violently to his anxiety about being forced to leave the planet.
In other words, Morbius' subconscious was made dimly aware of what the Krell machine was doing to "solve his problem". His dreams were tinged with a vague awareness of what the Krell machine was doing.
This would actually be consistent with my suggestion that the machine could implant thoughts into Morbius' mind, although prior this I'd only considered this as something the Plastic Educator did when it was used by the Krell.
This new idea is exciting because it suggests that the Krell machine itself might have been able to communicate directly with the Krell — who might have communicated telepathic with each other.
Suppose the Krell machine could do more than just materialized solid objects on demand . . . it could also provide information telepathically on demand!
David, this is a fascinating new idea! To quote Morbius again, "Why haven't I seen this all along!"
By gum, I just realized that my laptop is a prototype of the Krell machine! I can get information in seconds, and whenever I want something, I simply "wish" for it and it appears on my doorstep . . . a few days later, when UPS brings my Amazon order. 
It's the same basic principle; fast access to info I need and objects I desire!
And I think it's obvious that the Krell would give their machine these same abilities. After all, it was supposed to "free them once and for all from any dependence on physical instrumentalities."
That means they'd no longer need computers or anything else that required a device to pull up information. Any information they asked for could be beamed right into their brains — including data, sounds, images, and even tactile sensations!
(Here's a quick reminder for anyone who doubts they could do this; "The Krell were a million years ahead of humankind." With that in mind, consider our technology just fifty years ago!)
David, I'll bet this is what you're thinking.
"Bud, what's YOUR evidence that the machine had some direct connection to the minds of it's users?"
I can easily answer that. One OTHER person in the story besides Morbius had an experience which suggested they were receiving thoughts from the machine.
Altaira!
It was her scream that awakened Morbius in the lab while the ship was being attacked.
She described her nightmare by saying, "Something was trying to break into the camp! There was blood and thunder, and something awful was moving in the middle of it."
Why would Altaira have such a specific dream about the Id monster attack?
Perhaps the most likely explanation for her dream was that she was receiving telepathic images from the Krell machine because it was reacting to her fear for the safety of the man she loved. In some ways it resembles the situation with Morbius and the Bellerophon crew.
Admittedly I can't explain why Altaira suddenly exhibited a connection with the Krell machine when she'd never had a brain boost, but one idea does come to mind which you might enjoy pondering. 
Morbius received his brain boost before Altara was born, possibly even before she was conceived. If the brain boost altered his brain and his DNA, then his offspring might have been born with genetic enhancements.
I realize that's a radical idea, but please bear in mind that this wonderful 98-minute movie from the fifties did an amazing job of laying the ground work for a vast and complex story about a race of super-geniuses whose technology was so advanced that the movie barely scratched the surface!
I urge you to consider the larger possibilities that the story implies, and not be opposed to theorizing about things the movie didn't simply "spell out". Everything I've suggested is based on the sound foundation the story established, and in many cases we must fill in some of the gaps in the concept, otherwise they seem like errors in storytelling!
Look at it this way; if I can invent ideas like these, the super-smart Krell could, too. The difference is, they were advanced enough to turn every one of my fanciful ideas into reality!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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Krel
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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So you reject the idea that a person with a greatly expanded intellect could figure out the puzzle on their own. But someone who has never, as far as we know, used the Plastic Educator, somehow has a mental connection to the machine?
I could more believe that Altaira's special relationship to her "Friends" had developed telepathic powers in her, which would explain the tiger's actions, AND knowledge of the attack.*
The fact that Morbius has vague disturbing dreams, but no clear images is what tells me that his ID is hindering his ability to remember his dreams (memories?) clearly. It is protecting his sanity.
Bud, you still haven't commented on my question as to whether the Plastic Educator only boost the brain on the first use. I find it interesting that further use of the PE didn't boost his brain further. If it did, than after two decades of use, Morbius should have been at the top of the scale.
David.
* But to shoot my own argument down, it could have been her special relationship with her "Friends" that created a form of connection to the machine. Able to receive images from the machine, on things that are important to her. Hmmm, perhaps it could be both? |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | So you reject the idea that a person with a greatly expanded intellect could figure out the puzzle on their own. But someone who has never, as far as we know, used the Plastic Educator, somehow has a mental connection to the machine? |
To be fair, David, I really don't reject the idea that it could happen — but I love the idea that the Plastic Educator implants info! If it doesn't have that capability, what does it do that qualifies it as an educational machine a million years more advanced than anything we have?
Forgive me for saying this, but you haven't offered a single suggestion. You just want the students to do their learning the old fashioned way.
Therefore, I think it's much more likely that Doc leaped far ahead of Morbius because he got both a brain boost and the information he needed to solve the mystery in just a few minutes. It's a much better science fiction story that way.
Gord Green and I had an hour-long conversation on the phone Saturday, and by the time we finished, we'd agreed on numerous aspects of this subject!
For example, we both feel that the Plastic Educator raises the student's intelligence incrementally whenever it senses the student is ready for a new "dose", so to speak. And each time the Plastic Educator is used, the student also gets as much new data as he can handle, based on his current level of intelligence.
In other words, a Krell child would get boosted periodically (not ever time), and he would never be overloaded the way the Bellerophon skipper, Morbius, and Doc were.
Gord and I also addressed the question below, too.
| Krel wrote: | | Bud, you still haven't commented on my question as to whether the Plastic Educator only boosted the brain on the first use. I find it interesting that further use of the PE didn't boost his brain further. If it did, than after two decades of use, Morbius should have been at the top of the scale. |
I'm delight that you brought that up!
Unfortunately, the Plastic Educator gave Morbius a brain boost that was much too high the very first time, and he "lay unconscious for a day and a night". The Plastic Educator therefore determined that this first dose raised Morbius' intelligence . . . as high as it could go.
And yet, even then his IQ was that of "a low grade moron by Krell standards". The machine reevaluated his intelligence each time he used it after that, but it determined he was already at the top of his game.
You may remember that after making the image of Altaira he said it was "something of a strain".
The Plastic Educator also overestimated Doc's capacity for the brain boost, and that caused his death, just like it had with the Bellerophon skipper. Morbius was lucky enough to have survived, and in his case the Plastic Educator learned from its mistake, so he got no more boosts, because they would have killed him.
However, one of the brilliant revelations Professor Gord Green shared with me on the phone Saturday was that the Plastic Educator did manage to implant modest amounts of data whenever Morbius used it, and one of the key subjects it implanted data about was . . . the Krell alphabet!
That's how he managed to decode "most of it" (as he stated).
As Gord put it, the Plastic Educator couldn't give Morbius (the poor "low grade moron") any of the really complex Krell science — but it could at least give him a kindergarten lesson that taught him his ABC's!
I was mighty impressed by that idea, along with several others which Gord and discussed.
| Krel wrote: | | I could more believe that Altaira's special relationship to her "Friends" had developed telepathic powers in her, which would explain the tiger's actions, AND knowledge of the attack. |
Ah well, we might have to disagree on some aspects of this one.
I've proved six ways from Sunday that the animals weren't real, so Altaira wouldn't need telepathic powers to get along with artificial creatures which the machine created because her father's deep love caused him to wish she had pets to keep her happy on Altair 4.
| Krel wrote: | | But to shoot my own argument down, it could have been her special relationship with her "Friends" that created a form of connection to the machine. Able to receive images from the machine, on things that are important to her. Hmmm, perhaps it could be both? |
Wait just a minute! Hot damn, that's brilliant!
Professor Green and I never saw THAT one coming! That's so profound I'll have to take a brain boost and drink a few beers to come up with a worthy reply for that new concept!
Based partly on the screenplay's description of the scene in which Altaira calls the animals in the garden and ends uppractically covered in devoted birds of all types, I believe the animals were created anew (but out of sight) each time they were called.
Remember Morbius said, "Sometimes the gauges register a little when the buck deer fight in the autumn or the birds fly over in the spring."
This is the strongest evidence that the animals are created by the machine, because the gauges register power usage, such as whenever the Id monster was created.
Concerning Altaira's animal friends, the machine would make sure the animals were behaving in a manner which pleased Altaira, so it would monitor her thoughts and emotions when she was with them.
Even though Altaira never had a brain boost which gave her the subconscious ability to send the machine "commands" like her father was unconsciously doing, it's not inconceivable that the machine could sense her strongest emotions and deepest thoughts without regarding them as "requests" to create something.
With that in mind, if the machine was specifically designed to interface with the Krell by creating any objects they wanted and by sending them telepathic messages which included any info they requested (the Krell version of Google), we can reasonably assume that a two-way communication developed between Altaira and the machine — unbeknownst to her!
Altaira was not able to control the machine and cause things to be created, but it was interacting with her telepathically.
And so, ladies and gentlemen, that's why Altaira woke up screaming in the middle of the night when she dreamed about the Id attack on the C-57-D!
Altaira's rudimentary interface with the Krell machine, based on the machine's need to insure her "pets" were fulfilling their function, caused her to get a "message" from the machine when the man she loved was in dire danger!
Bear in mind, folks, that the Krell machine was designed and built to keep its users happy.
Yes, I know — that plan certainly didn't turn out too well . . . but 200,000 years later the machine got a second chance when a shipload of sentient beings landed on Altair 4 who were almost smart enough to put the poor Krell machine back in business!
Unfortunately, history repeated itself, and the valiant efforts of the loyal Krell machine were thwarted again by problems caused by "poor communication". The machine struggled valiantly to understand the murky commands which Morbius' "boosted" subconscious sent it, but they just weren't very clear, and as a result more people died!
By God . . . I love this movie!
| Krel wrote: | | The fact that Morbius has vague disturbing dreams, but no clear images is what tells me that his ID is hindering his ability to remember his dreams (memories?) clearly. It is protecting his sanity. |
Actually, Morbius was quite correct when he said, "What man can remember his own dreams?
Heck fire, everybody has experienced the common phenomenon of waking up from a dream and — no matter how wonderful or how horrible it was — the dream fades from our memories in minutes, no matter how hard we try to hang on to it!
Therefore, Morbius didn't need his subconscious to suppress the memories of his dreams — any more than the rest of us do! Dreams just fade away . . . . and I've always wonder why! But it happens to everybody.
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David, my friend, I absolutely love discussing this subject with you and the other guys, because your opinions (which I respect) have challenged me to re-evaluate my own! I'd never have come up with these concepts if I hadn't needed to analyze your points of view, determine how I feel about them, and then put my thoughts into the right words in hopes of convincing you and the other members of All Sci-Fi that I might be onto something.
Naturally I'm not asking you to agree with everything I've said, but I've certainly appreciated the way you carefully considered my opinions and responded to them with intelligent, imaginative, and honest answers!
People like you are the reason I created All Sci-Fi and the reason I've fought to keep it alive since 2006, recreating it from scratch whenever that daunting task became necessary!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:47 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Krel
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | Forgive me for saying this, but you haven't offered a single suggestion. You just want the students to do their learning the old fashioned way.
The Plastic Educator also overestimated Doc's capacity for the brain boost, and that caused his death, just like it had with the Bellerophon skipper. Morbius was lucky enough to have survived, and in his case the Plastic Educator learned from its mistake, so he got no more boosts, because they would have killed him.
Well my goodness, Morbius was quite correct when he said, "What man can remember his own dreams?
Heck fire, everybody has experienced the common phenomenon of waking up from a dream and — no matter how wonderful or how horrible it was — the dream fades from our memories in minutes, no matter how hard we try to hang on to it!
Therefore, Morbius didn't need for his subconscious to suppress the memories of his dreams — any more than the rest of us do! Dreams just fade away . . . . and I've always wonder why! But it happens to everybody. |
1) Sometimes the old way is the best. There is no replacement for repetition if you want to learn how to do something. The PE, in addition to boosting the intellect, was teaching the Krell how to visualize what they want, and control the process. If you can figure out how to get the benefits of exercise, without out the exercise, you will be the richest man on Earth.
2) I still think that the level of boost might depend on the length of exposure. As I wrote, Morbius had expedition members looking out for him after the Captain fried his brain. Doctor Ostrow was alone, without anyone to limit his exposure.
3) You said it. His ID wasn't suppressing dreams, it was suppressing memories of his ID's actions. Memories usually don't fade away that easily.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17104
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that does it. We'll just have to agree to disagree . . . on practically everything.
Oh well . . . I tried.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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