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Krel
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 Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord Green wrote: | Nonsense , "900 light years" is irrelevant as far as the Enterprise goes. Warp drive is clearly faster than then the speed of light. In fact each designation "warp two" "warp three" etc are multiples of the speed of light.
Trelane's castle is set from the 15th to 17th century décor so if he viewed that in "real time" to him it would place his "now" to the about the 23rd century or...900 years later than his "when" |
It's not nonsense. Yes, the Enterprise drive is FTL, but the speed of light, IS the speed of light. Light has no warp drive. It is stated in the episode that it would take 900 Years for light from Earth to reach Trelane's planet. That means the episode takes place at least 900 years after the light left earth.
Trelane's chosen time period appears to be either the 17th, or 18th century. For it to be the 23rd century, that would be 500 to 600 years. Not the 900 stated in the episode.
David. |
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trekriffic
Starship Navigator
Joined: 19 Feb 2015
Posts: 593
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| You know, this whole argument could have been avoided if only Gene Roddenberry had done what the creator of Babylon 5 did many years later in his series, make the year the first thing they tell you in the introduction. |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17091
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Note to the other members: Please understand, David and I both enjoy spirited debates. And as we all know, sometimes I get plum carried away! 
But I love discussing science and concepts. And that's exactly what this is all about. It's not about opinions, preconceived notions, or preferred outcomes!
However, I apologize for some of the inconsiderate comments I've made to David. He's been polite to me while sticking to his own unique interpretation of the evidence — and I respect that. 
So, I apologize for making some members feel uncomfortable because of the things I've said which sounded disrespectful. I promise to be more polite. 
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David, I respectfully request a little clarification concerning what seems to be a few contradictory remarks you've made.
For example, on Jun 01, 2019 you made this statement in the very first reply on page 1 of this thread.
| Krel wrote: | | In the episode, Spock states that it would have taken the images from earth 9 centuries to reach the planet. That means that the show was taking place in either the 26th, or 27th century. |
Well, this is not quite accurate, sir. It was actually Yeager who first told Kirk that Trelane’s home resembled "what might be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough to — " (He didn't finish the sentence.)
As for Spock, he never actually commented on how Trelane learned so much about Earth. And just for the record, he also never mentioned images or the distance to Earth.
Another important statement you made is this one.
| Krel wrote: | | G.R. didn't want to pin down a date for "Star Trek". The closest they came was in "The Squire of Gothos", which indicates that S.T. takes place in either the 26th, or 27th century. This is due to the 900 year time it would have taken for light from Earth to reach Gothos. |
[size=20My earlier posts explained in great detail all the reasons this would be completely impossible — like the fact that he couldn't learn to speak French, German, and English, or learn the names of historical figures just from images in the light waves!
After reading that, you seemed to be less certain about this idea, so you said this.[/size]
| Krel wrote: | I never mentioned how Trelane got his information. I was just commenting on how long it would take light from our solar system to reach there. To tell the truth, I always assumed he used some other method, just for the reasons you stated.
We know that images and signals degrade with distance, so no matter how powerful the telescope, I seriously doubt you would be able to make out any details. |
David, doesn't that statement indicate that you no longer thought the light waves were Trelane's source of data about Earth?
It certainly sounds like it.
Based on that statement, I thought we'd reached a consensus on this important element of the debate.
I then pointed out that since Trelane had god-like powers, he really didn't need to receive the fuzzy images in faint light waves from a distant Earth . . . and also that they wouldn't have been much use anyway! 
However, his god-like powers would be the "other method" you referred to.
But when I reiterated that the light waves simply couldn’t be Trelane’s method for learning about Earth (including famous names and various languages), you suddenly switched back to your first argument with this statement.
| Krel wrote: | | It is stated that the light would take 900 years to get there, and influence Trelane. That means that the Enterprise had to arrive there AT LEAST 900 years later, NOT 600. |
Wow. That's when I got reallly confused, David!
Although it's true that Gothos is 900 light years from Earth, nobody in the episode actually "stated" that it would take light 900 years to get there. (I just wanted to clarify that.)
However, would you please explain how the light waves could have "influenced Trelane" if they only provided (at best) poor images . . . but none of the other information he needed? You said yourself that light waves from Earth would be "degraded with distance", and that, "I seriously doubt you would be able to make out any details."
Besides, the only person who ever mentioned anything about the light from Earth was Yeager, and he simply said that the appearance of Trelane's home was like "what would be seen through a viewing scope if it were powerful enough to — "
He was interrupted by Trelane, who proclaims, "Ah yes! I've been looking in on the doings of your lively little Earth!"
I'm sure that a God-like being has various ways of looking in on something. 
David, let's be clear on this important point.
If you agree that Trelane could not have used the highly "degraded" light from a distant Earth to acquire such detailed knowledge, and that he therefore must have used "some other method" — then frankly I just don't understand why you keep insisting that the light waves from Earth had to reach Gothos before this story could take place!
As a matter of fact, David . . . they simply DON'T!
Heck, Trelane didn't give a hoot about the light waves from Earth! Why should he? They couldn't possibly tell him all the things he wanted to know concerning Earth at that time.
David, I realize that you've been completely focused on the idea that if Star Trek TOS took place in the 23rd Century, those light waves wouldn't have reached Gothos yet.
But let's be logical, sir! Why does that really matter? Even when they DO arrive, all Trelane can do with them is view fuzzy images (again, at best). The light waves are essentially useless to Trelane!
With all this in mind, please explain to us why I'm wrong in thinking that if Trelane did NOT use the light waves to learn about Earth's history and culture, we should not take what Officer Yeager said about the "view scope" literally.
He was just saying that Trelane's decor looked like . . . well, a museum exhibit! 
In other words . . . we should just abandon the illogical idea that the episode took place after the light waves arrived at Gothos, 900 years after they left Earth.
Just for the record, David, nobody in the episode ever said he did use the light waves. That appears to be an assumption you made which simply does not explain Trelane's knowledge of Earth's history.
Trelane obviously learned everything by "some other method", as you correctly stated.
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As for my statement about Trelane being a Q, I realize that was an unsupported assumption. I apologize, sir. I only meant that he had similar god-like powers, such as —
~ snatching people off the Enterprise
~ appearing on the bridge instantly
~ disabling the ship
~ turning energy into matter and vise versa (as Trelane stated)
~ moving Gothos around in space to keep it directly in front of the Enterprise when it tried to escape
. . . and best of all —
~ creating Gothos and other planets, according to his parents at the end.
If he can do all that, I think his amazing abilities offer us the perfect solution to the problem concerning how Trelane could learn all the things he knew about Earth!
David, if I'm still missing an important point, please help me understand what is.
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Krel
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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First. I am not offended by anything that was said, or any disagreement with me.
You all have the right to be wrong, and I will defend to the death your right to be wrong. 
Besides, it's a fun discussion.
Like I said, I subscribe to the belief that if it isn't on the screen, then it doesn't matter, as it is irrelevant. So any assumptions, or theories I make about how Trelane gained his knowledge of Earth means nothing, as they are not in the episode.
The fact that the planet is 900 light years from Earth, means that it takes the light from Earth 900 years to get there. So the episode takes place, at a minimum, 900 years later (Thanks for that revaluation Bud.  ). It doesn't matter how fast the Enterprise can travel, it will still take the light from Earth 900 years to arrive at Trelane's planet. Whether or not Trelane used his machinery, a unbelievably powerful telescope, or some magical powers, it would still take 900 years for the light to get there.
Anyone picking up a theme here?
Any other assumptions, or theories about Trelane and his abilities are irrelevant, as they are not in the episode.
How did Trelane get his information? I don't know, the episode puts forth a theory, but doesn't state for sure. It wasn't necessary to the show, and added mystery that fuels this discussion..
David. |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17091
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! David, you are wonderful.
I was convinced you wouldn't accept my totally logical reply, because it refuted everything you've stated about this episode!
But I certainly didn't expect you to reject it with such masterful style and poetic grace!
You might not have the same rigid reverence for logic which I have, but you do have the awesome poetic skills to side-step all my dull logic and enhance this discussion with literary footwork which rivals the great Solid Gold Dancers of the 1980s!
David, I suspect that a pleasant dinner conversion between famed writers Larry Niven and H.P. Lovecraft would have ended like this debate — with the two gentlemen smiling while they debated who should pick up the check.
Well, sir . . . this evening, the dinner is on me!
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_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: |
You might not have the same rigid reverence for logic which I have |
It's a television show. What's logic got to do with it? 
David. |
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