ALL SCI-FI Forum Index ALL SCI-FI
The place to “find your people”.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

TOS episode #24 - Space Seed
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> Star Trek on Television
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17018
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Pow wrote:
Kirk was inhumanly negligent for never checking up on Khan and his people after leaving 'em Ceti Alpha. Then again,how would we ever get the superb sequel movie "The Wrath of Khan"if Kirk had dropped in on his former prisoners.?

Starfleet should have at least put automated spy satellites in orbit to keep tabs on Khan and his people.

Good point! Very Happy

And it brings up a fascinating question. Khan and company shouldn't have on a planet without having to answer for their crimes. They attempted to commandeer a starship! Simply letting them off easy by putting him on an uninhabited planet would not sit well with Starfleet.

As soon as Kirk reported the incident he would have been ordered to get his ass back to Ceti Alpha V and put the prisoner in the ship's brig — including Lt. McGivers, who would stand trial for mutiny! Shocked

No sir, Kirk screwed the pooch on this one. And since we all agree that Kirk certainly wouldn't neglect to report the incident to Starfleet, they too screwed the pooch by apparently NOT ordering Kirk to bring the whole group to trial.

Since he did NOT do that, Starfleet obviously didn't order him to do it! So, Krel is dead right when he said that Starfleet was negligent.

However, I guess in the final analysis the true pooch screwers in this situation were the writers who made our favorite starship captain and our favorite interstellar organization act so damned . . . well, illogical! Confused

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Krel
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khan and his people are for all intents superhuman. The problem would be both transportation and incarceration. It would be very dangerous to try and keep these people incarcerated on a populated world with modern technology. Think of the mischief and damage they could do with access to the technology and resources of a 26th century world.

Marooning them on a planet with no modern resources, except that which was needed to sustain life was the safest course of action. I really wouldn't call that getting off easy.

Another reason to have spy satellites would be interdiction to keep some idiot from paying them a visit and giving them access to another starship.

David.
Back to top
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17018
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Valid points, one and all. I'm impressed! Very Happy

Not only are they logical, they stimulate further thinking on the subject. For example . . .

I can't help thinking that the 23rd century penal system ought to be capable of safely incarcerating far more dangers beings than Khan and his enhanced human colleagues. We all know they're brilliant badasses . . . but surely 23rd century technology could create effective prison facilities for Kahn and company.

For that reason, I question this comment.


Krel wrote:
Khan and his people are for all intents superhuman. The problem would be both transportation and incarceration. It would be very dangerous to try and keep these people incarcerated on a populated world with modern technology. Think of the mischief and damage they could do with access to the technology and resources of a 26th century world.

I know you're not suggesting that dangerous criminals frequently escaped from maximum security prisons and endangered the public. And I understand that the Federation endeavored to rise above the days of "death penalties" and harsh prison conditions.

But I just can't accept the idea that Khan's people are so dangerous no prison could hold them! Shocked

As for Lt. McGivers, she committed mutiny and should be tried for that grievous offense. So, leaving her on Ceti Alpha V is tantamount to condemning her without a trial — a legal no-no, even by today's standards. Sad

However, if we accept your suggestion that marooning these supermen and superwomen on Ceti Alpha V is the most reliable way of keeping them safely separated from civilized society, we have to question the fact that the USS Reliant in The Wrath of Khan made multiple blunders when it ventured into the Ceti Alpha star system and didn't realize that Ceti Alpha VI (the neighboring planet to Khan's "prison") was gone! Shocked

And then the Reliant sent down a landing party of just two (the captain and Chekov) down to Ceti Alpha V . . . by mistake.

Yes, I know . . . that enjoyable movie has several screw ups we shouldn't really inflict on TOS. I'm just tossing that idea into the mix for the fun of it. Very Happy

However, the Federation apparently decided that this incredibly dangerous group of super-criminals could only be safely incarcerated on Ceti Alpha V, far from civilized society and modern technology.

If so, wouldn't they have insure that no starship venture into that star system?

Perhaps they did, but that still seems like a drastic measure just to isolate a group of humans who were "far above average" in terms of strength and intelligence.

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scotpens
Starship Captain


Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 871
Location: The Left Coast

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
As for Lt. McGivers, she committed mutiny and should be tried for that grievous offense. So, leaving her on Ceti Alpha V is tantamount to condemning her without a trial — a legal no-no, even by today's standards. Sad

She was given a choice -- face a court martial or accompany Khan and his people on the planet. She chose to stay with Khan.

Remember that a starship captain has very wide-ranging authority and broad discretionary powers, analogous to ship's captains of the great naval powers in the 18th and 19th centuries. Kirk felt it would be a waste to put Khan and his followers in a "reorientation center." We may question Kirk's decision, but it was his to make.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing as God-like as a General on the battlefield ….OR a starship Captain.
_________________
There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Krel
Guest





PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
I know you're not suggesting that dangerous criminals frequently escaped from maximum security prisons and endangered the public. And I understand that the Federation endeavored to rise above the days of "death penalties" and harsh prison conditions.

But I just can't accept the idea that Khan's people are so dangerous no prison could hold them! Shocked

I am saying that people escape from maximum security prisons. It's not common but it happens, and these are ordinary humans, NOT physically and mentally enhanced humans.

I don't want to use the term supermen. Maybe advanced humans? What do y'all think?

These people would be plotting their escape, researching the society and learning the science and technology. Their jailers will be ordinary people who WILL make mistakes, just like they do now. People who, despite their best efforts will eventually let their guard down. Or have a moment of distraction, inattention or even start developing sympathies. Khan's people will exploit all of that.

That's all they will need to escape into society, and then the wolves will be loose among the sheep. And being wolves, and not wanting to be sent back to prison, they will be even more ruthless and merciless than they already are.

David.
Back to top
Pow
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 3400
Location: New York

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the NBC press release, issued on January 26, 1967:

Ricardo Montalban guest-star as the survivor of a tyrannical super race in 'Space Seed,' a drama in which Captain kirk (William Shatner) and his crew are unwitting accomplices in an attempt to seize world power, on NBC Television Network's colorcast Star Trek....

Found aboard an ancient and foundering cargo space vessel with his body in a state of suspended animation, Khan (Montalban) is allowed to convalesce on the USS Enterprise. Suspicious of Khan's true identity, Kirk and Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) soon determine their "patient" is one of a group of scientifically-bred super-beings bent on world domination, and put him under guard. With the aid of a sympathetic crew member, Marla (Madlyn Rhue), who has fallen in love with him, Khan escapes, wrests command of the Enterprise and threatens the entire ship's compliment with execution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pow
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 3400
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Pow wrote:
Kirk was inhumanly negligent for never checking up on Khan and his people after leaving 'em Ceti Alpha. Then again,how would we ever get the superb sequel movie "The Wrath of Khan"if Kirk had dropped in on his former prisoners.?

It wasn't Kirk that was negligent, it was Starfleet. Once Kirk reported the incident it became Starfleet's responsibility. And Kirk would have to report the incident, because his ship got taken over and his crew imprisoned. There's no way SOMEONE wasn't going to spill the beans.

Starfleet should have at least put automated spy satellites in orbit to keep tabs on Khan and his people.

Selective breeding in animals and plants has been practiced for thousands of years. Corn looks nothing like the original version. Wolves were bred into dogs, most looking nothing like a wolf.

David.
A very valid point regarding that it's Starfleet's responsibility to do periodic check-ups on Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha V.

However, I would submit that as a part of standard operating procedure that Starfleet would be giving Kirk update's on Khan and his situation. It was, after all, Kirk & his crew's encounter with the Botany Bay which resulted in this case file.

If Starfleet dropped the ball regarding checking in on Khan & his people, and Kirk wasn't receiving any reports from them, then this should have alerted Kirk something was wrong.

Also, just as a part of human curiosity, I would think Kirk would wonder from time to time about Khan. This would also make any lack of reports an alert to Kirk that there was a problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> Star Trek on Television All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group