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Forbidden Planet (1956)
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

Ah-HA! Now I see it! Very Happy

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

The All Sci-Fi Live Chat group recently tried to watch Forbidden Planet on Svengoolie after we finished watching our schedule chat feature.

However, within minutes of the movie's opening scene we were shocked when we realized that the film had been heavily edited!

I've watched this wonderful movie so many times since it was released in 1956 that I'd spot the removal of single shot or a single line of dialog — but the Svengoolie airing compressed the first fifteen minutes into about ten!

The chat group and I abandoned the Svengoolie airing soon after we realized what was being done to it. And I lost some of my respect for Rich Koz's program.

Perhaps the editing wasn't Ray's fault, but if the producers of Svengoolie have no respect for Forbidden Planet, I'm not interesting in watching their program.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

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Maurice
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
The All Sci-Fi Live Chat group recently tried to watch Forbidden Planet on Svengoolie after we finished watching our schedule chat feature.

However, within minutes of the movie's opening scene we were shocked when we realized that the film had been heavily edited!

I've watched this wonderful movie so many times since it was released in 1956 that I'd spot the removal of single shot or a single line of dialog — but the Svengoolie airing compressed the first fifteen minutes into about ten!

The chat group and I abandoned the Svengoolie airing soon after we realized what was being done to it. And I lost some of my respect for Rich Koz's program.

Perhaps the editing wasn't Ray's fault, but if the producers of Svengoolie have no respect for Forbidden Planet, I'm not interesting in watching their program.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I'm surprised you're surprised. Svengoolie runs in a two hour timeslot on a basic cable service that runs commercials, upwards of 7–8 minutes worth per half hour, which is like 28–36 minutes out of each two hour program. Now add the host segments and bookends and you're lucky if you get 1:15 of movie, and FP is 1:38.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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You're right, Maurice. It was naive of me to think the movie would be shown intact. Sad

My daughter (All Sci-Fi member Ticket2theMoon) sent me an ASF PM to say that she was going to watch a DVR of Svengoolie with her significant other, who'd never seen Forbidden Planet before!

I tried to warn her about the butchered version, but she didn't get message in time. However, her boyfriend said he liked it so much he wanted to see the uncut version with no commercials.

My daughter's birthday was just two weeks ago, so I'm sending her the Blu ray! Cool

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay tuned Bud. I'm about to start a debate as profound and deeply provoking as the "Great House Debate" was!

Let me start with the first observation. The images we see of Altair 4 as we approach it are NOT images of the surface...But are the outer atmosphere of the planet.

How do we know this? Because from the surface of the planet the "sky" is GREEN! The atmosphere has a filtering layer that appears opaque from the outside, where the light from Altair,(a blue star after all!) allows light to pass through it, but not to reflect back!

This really has nothing to do with what I am about to discuss....But it answers the question of why no physical attributes of Altair 4 were discernable from orbit.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

Wow, GG, that is an awesome observation! Cool

As a matter of fact, I've always wondered why the sky of Altair 4 looks nothing like the sky here on Earth. We often talk about how the sky is green . . . but it really isn't!

It's green close the horizon, but it's black (or dark blue) above the narrow green band when viewed from the landing area.










That, of course, is how the "C-57-D set" cyclorama was painted. But how could a daytime sky be blue-black? Confused

Clearly, we've got a real puzzle on our hands, and your theory about the atmosphere's strange effect on the light rays cannot be complete discounted no matter how much contrary evidence I might try to present! Very Happy

In fact, the other cyclorama that was made for the miniature landscape in the landing scene shows us that the blue-black color of the sky wasn't just a strange dark "band" above the green area at the horizon.

What can we conclude from this? Well, apparently the noonday "sun" (Altair) blazes in the middle of blue-black sky! Shocked

But how is that possible?








Gord, this amazing fact definitely suggests that the atmosphere is doing something quite remarkable — just as your theory suggests. Very Happy

It's puzzling that the house and graveyard paintings extend the green so far up that none of the blue-black sky is visible. But we can discount that as being an independent decision made by matte artist Henri Hillinck.








However, more clues to this puzzle are contained in the the way the sky looks in the "night scene" with the C-57-D. Notice that the green area is still visible, even though it's smaller and fainter than in the daytime shots.





However, the startling thing about that scene is that the stars are shining brightly — which means the dark daytime sky can't be caused by anything in the atmosphere that is opaque — unless it's only opaque to light reflected off the surface and directed back towards space! Shocked

And that's exactly what you described, Professor Green! Very Happy

So far, your theory is substantiated by several observations of the daytime and nighttime sky, as seen from the surface.

Therefore, if some of the light from Altair 4 is reaching the surface but not being reflected back into space, you're absolutely right that what we're actually seeing from space is just the upper atmosphere!

It is being illuminated by a portion of the sunlight that reflects off it, rather than reaching the surface.

This astounding concept led me to Google this question.

"How large is our sun compared to the star, Altair?"

The answer amazed me . . . Shocked
__________________________________________________

Physically Altair's radius is 1.8 times larger than our Sun's with a luminosity 10.6 times greater. Its close proximity has allowed its apparent disc size to be directly measured as 3 milliarcseconds.
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Gord, consider what this means in connection with your theory! Altair is almost twice the size of Sol — but it's more than 10 times brighter!

My God, why isn't poor Altair 4 a dead, sun-baked hell? Confused

The answer, Professor, lies in the fact that — according to the Gordon Green Hypothesis — the atmosphere of Altair 4 has the amazing ability to filter out 90% of the sunlight, thereby protecting the planet from the lethal effects of its parent star! Very Happy

Even more support for your theory was found when I learned this about sunlight.
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Shorter wavelength waves of photons have more energy per photon than longer wavelength photons. Of the sunlight that reaches Earth's surface, 54% is already heat (infrared), 45% is visible light, and about 1% at shorter wavelengths (ultraviolet).
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Ah HA! Mr. Green

So, the unique atmosphere of Altair 4 reflects most of the infrared light (thereby preventing the planet from being roasted), and it also reflects enough of the visible light to illuminated the upper atmosphere.

In addition to this, it blocks most of the visible light which does reach the surface from being reflected back into space! Very Happy

This simple diagram illustrates the basic idea.



__________


Please note that the intense heat of the star, Altair, is the reason why the C-57-D was threatened by the brutal sunlight when it came out of hyperspace near the third planet. They were forced to take shelter in the shadow of the planet while they moved away from the star.





And then, when the ship goes into orbit —





— we see that Altair 4 looks nothing like Earth, whose surface is clearly visible between the clouds, showing land masses and oceans.





For God's sake, why did I ever think the views of Altair 4 from space gave us anything remotely like a clear view of the surface! Rolling Eyes





Hell's bells, even in the scene on the bridge when the guys are discussing what they see of the planet on their view screen, it's obviously a layer of clouds that obscures the surface below!









The fact Jerry Farman says he doesn't see any signs of civilization seems a bit silly when you consider what he's looking at on the screen.

But in all fairness, his comment must have been based on scans of the surface (like on Star Trek), because even our own Earth reveals no signs of civilization when viewed from space (except for the Great Wall).






In conclusion, Professor Green, I believe that my research has entirely validated the Gordon Green Hypothesis, which explains Altair 4's strange blue-black sky AND the fact that we never see a view from space that reveals the presence-or-absence of features like large bodies of water, ice capes, or desert regions.

Sir, you have also proven that the extensive debate between me and several members which took place a few years ago was based entirely on misinterpreted and inclusive data! Shocked

We wrangled back and forth for a week or more over the question of whether or not Altair 4 had oceans, or whether it was just one big desert.

At last we finally realize that the question cannot be answered by anything we see in the movie! Altair 4's unique, heat-shielding atmosphere jealously guards her secrets . . . while making it very hospitable, despite having a merciless sun!
Cool

GG, I salute you!_
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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Commander Brewster!
You proved my supposition and explained it beautifully!

Think of the atmospheric layer as kind of like those "one way" mirrors, where light is reflected from one side and you can clearly see through the other!

Also, if you look at any of the studio paintings of Altair 4 you can see the bands of clouds obscuring any views of the surface in normal light! Farman was able to scan the planet for structures etc. by using something like LIDAR, a type of cloud penetrating radar!

Your research ability is formidable! Thank you again for your acknowledgement!!

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Your post is the kind of original thinking that I created the first version of All Sci-Fi for back in 2006.

That was 16 years ago, and I've fought to keep the board alive simply because I'm desperate for members like you who can ignite my imagination with ideas like the one you presented above.

In fact, it's so brilliant that it's still percolated in my mind, and here's what I just came up with! Cool
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Some folks might reject the idea that the planet's atmosphere could have the remarkable properties I've described.

But those folks are forgetting that 200,000 years ago this planet was the home of a mighty and noble race of beings . . . who called themselves the Krell.






The Krell had, according to Morbius' twenty years of research, achieved a million years of shining sanity before they finally began to explore the mysteries of the galaxy.




~ By gum, if this ain't one 'a them Krell starship, then my old hound dog is the Easter Bunny! Laughing

With all that in mind, I submit that at some point in the Krell's long and technologically advanced history, they had to deal with a serious problem which involved their primary star, Altair.

Perhaps Altair began to evolve into a hotter star, and the Krell had to protect their planet from the rising heat.

The Krell's solution was to create a specialized atmosphere which filtered out their sun's solar radiation and deflect the infrared rays away from their planet.






This artificial atmosphere was created and controlled by the great machine the Krell were building — the one which would eventually become the mechanism that was supposed to enable all the Krell to instantly create whatever they wanted!

Creation by mere thought!








For thousands of centuries, Altair 4 was a tailor-made paradise for the Krell race. Their artificial atmosphere protected them from any solar variations which their sun might experience. And a network of satellites dealt with any space born objects that threatened their planet.





And yet, the downfall of this great race was not caused by some natural disaster or an invasion by an alien race.

As we all know, it was caused by a tragic miscalculation in the design of the Krell machine which was supposed to be their crowning achievement — the machine that would "free them once and for all from any dependence on physical instrumentality".

However, what it did instead was unleash their own repressed nature, the subconscious "mindless primitive", from which they had evolved, millions of years earlier.






And so, this "almost divine race" — as Morbius described them — destroyed themselves. All they left was the Great Machine, still functioning and still maintaining the artificial atmosphere which protected the planet from a star that was 10 times hotter than our sun!
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs1-njm_MPU

A simple representation of the Morbius residence. Made with cassette boxes, straws, plasticard, papier mache and assorted oddments.

"I decided not to attempt an accurate model as per the film, instead it merely conveys the visual style using recycled materials." said the builder.

Of course Bud will say "It's all wrong! He put the enterance in the FRONT!!!"

Still, I think it's a great homage to the "idea" of the residence. A dream of the 24th century planted in our psyches in 1954 that haunts us to this day and beyond!

(Only kidding Boss!!!)

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Last edited by Gord Green on Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

The YouTube link isn't working, Gord, but we have a post about that video somewhere on this loooong thread! So, it certainly couldn't hurt to post it again. Very Happy

Meanwhile. I think I found it on YouTube. Is this it?


______________ Forbidden Planet House Model


___________

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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow a couple of "plus" signs got inserted into Gord Green's link. Here's the correct YouTube link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs1-njm_MPU
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the journal of Edward Morbius
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I would suppose that since I am the only resident left on this world that my ramblings are absolute truth and the final word on any subject I recognize.

My fellow crewmen are gone. One by one they all were "removed". The last were vaporized in mid attempt to take off.

Only myself and my wife were spared from the destruction. I don't know why. Perhaps it was our love for this world and the challenges of exploring the knowledge of the ancient Krell.

I had constructed my avatar . . . Robby . . . soon after my "brain boost". Physically he was a product of my new ability to create and transmit physical matter for whatever the source desired. I used the Krell's knowledge of physics and technology to manifest my other self. I was able to tinker parts of my human concepts with the Krellian technology I was exposed to, allowing me to create a physical manifestation.

It was creation with a mere thought!

It was not just an increase in my ability to process data, but also a source of greater insight of the reality of the Universe. That is indeed a misnomer, as there is nothing "uni" in the context.

But I digress from my entry in this journal.

What happened after the destruction of the Belleraphon and the crew?

My wife was pregnant.

I loved her beyond human comprehension. We were alone on this forbidden planet, left to our own devices and paltry abilities.

It was time for her to give birth. She was very much in distress, and I felt helpless! Every one else was gone . . . no one to help. How we were spared, I have no idea.

I once more went to the "plastic educator" and submitted again to the terrible pain of its effects on my mind!

My beloved wife was dead. My unborn child was dead! A little girl! My every part of me . . . my mind . . . ego and Id and everything else I contained flowed out of me like a tidal wave of feeling! I screamed into the Altarian night!

My daughter was no more. My beloved wife was no more! I was completely alone!

Even the ultimate power of the Krell was unable to change that.

Or was it?

But . . .

From my wife's physical body . . . "something" was manifested. I stood . . . transfixed . . . as from the light that surrounded my wife . . . another female form appeared and stepped forward.

"Hello father . . . " Altaria said.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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That is incredible, Gord!

Did you compose this yourself or is it from some other source? It certainly re-imagines Forbidden Planet in a dramatically different way. Confused

Maybe all that you described above actually occurred — but Morbius has no conscious knowledge of it in the story presented by the movie. Thankfully, it doesn't suggest that Morbius caused any of the terrible thinks which happened, a suggestion I would have not cared for.

And yet it states that Morbius mastered some of the abilities the Krell possessed during the traumatic periods after the Bellerophon was destroyed!

The traumatic events that occurred during that time — the death of his shipmates, the destruction of the ship, the passing of his wife during childbirth, and (as your "journal" states), the death of the child as well — might have caused Edward Morbius's Krell-boosted mind to experience a metamorphosis which resulted in the amazing event your "journal" describes. Shocked

I think we could devise a way to mesh the movie's plot with this new take on Edward Morbius if we set our minds to it.

It would be a very interesting challenge. Very Happy

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story is completely my own, although I confess the idea that Alta was created from Morbius's mind has been bandied around before. But this is totally my own writing.

(I might not completely believe it...But it's kind of a "What If" story.

Nothing in it contradicts anything in the movie, scripts, or novel.

Morbius never said his wife died in childbirth. That's an assumption many have made but he only said that she died from "natural causes". Perhaps she lived for a number of years through Alta's childhood and succumbed to cancer when Alta was 16. Who knows? It's not really explained any further.

However it's kind of funny that we never see any bit of Alta as a child. No pictures, no favorite toy from childhood laying around...nothing. But that "proves" nothing. It just can make for an interesting discussion!


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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Your "journal" is extremely well written, Gord. I love the concepts. Very Happy

However, I have a question about these two statements.


Gord Green wrote:
Nothing in it contradicts anything in the movie, scripts, or novel.

And yet, there's this.

Gord Green wrote:
I had constructed my avatar . . . Robby . . . soon after my "brain boost". Physically he was a product of my new ability to create and transmit physical matter for whatever the source desired.

Are suggesting that Morbius mistakenly thought he'd acquired the ability to do what the Krell machine was designed to do for the Krell?

Hey, that's good, Gord! It really doesn't contradict the movie! If I'm understanding you correctly, here's what you seem to be saying.

Since Morbius didn't find out what the Krell machine was for until the climax of the movie, he assumed that the plastic educator's brain boost gave him the power to create matter — albeit not to the degree the machine was designed to do for the more intelligent Krell.






He didn't realize until the climax that the Krell machine was giving him this ability, and that it also caused the annihilation of the Krell.

Gord, for years I've insisted that Morbius could not have consciously caused the creation of Altaira's pets, because he didn't even know what the Krell machine was for.

However, if he mistakenly thought that the brain boost had given him the ability to create matter, then he actually could have created the animals for his daughter (without knowing that the Krell machine was doing all the "heavy lifting", you might say). Very Happy






My God, this would completely explain why Morbius wasn't the slightest bit troubled by the fact his daughter just happened to have a private Petting Zoo of animals that were native to a planet which was sixteen light years away!

Of course it didn't puzzle him! Heck, he gave those critters to his daughter for Christmas! (Without ever explaining to her where they came from.)

By gum, this even explains why Morbius wasn't a bit worried about his daughter being harmed by the tiger, which he says was "a deadly wild beast" when it was outside his daughter's influence. Very Happy






This also explains how Morbius built Robby. The component parts were created by the machine, giving him the ability to assemble the robot — something he deemed as mere "child's play". Very Happy

The dramatic climax of the movie is also consistent with your suggestion that Morbious had misinterpreted the situation. He's shocked to learn that the Krell machine was actually the source his ability, and that the Krell race had been destroyed by that same ability,

Fpr example, the moment shown below makes as much sense (if not more) if we apply your interpretation. Morbius says this.

"Why haven't I seen this all along?"






He's astounded by the revelation that his creative powers are simply his own thoughts being acted upon by the machine.

Gord, if we adopt the idea that Morbius believed he'd been given the power of "creation by mere thought" by the plastic educator, then we can't actually rule out the possibility that his devastating grief over the death of his child at some point might have caused him to unconsciously send the Krell machine a "request" to replace her with a duplicate! Shocked

But he, of course, would think that his "expanded intellect" had created her.

With all this in mind, we should re-evaluate his desperate attempts to prevent Altaira from leaving with Adams.






He knows she's not a "real" person, and he could not even be sure she wouldn't cease to exist if she left Altair 4 — or that she would vanish someday after he passed away!





Gord, I salute you!

You've proven, yet again, that Forbidden Planet continues to inspire new thoughts and new interpolations of this amazing story. :

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