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Journey to the Far Side of the Sun - Mach7's Concept

 
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mach7
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:38 pm    Post subject: Journey to the Far Side of the Sun - Mach7's Concept Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
Once in orbit of this unusual planet, their scans are affected by unknown energy sources, preventing them from collecting adequate information. They must descend to the planet itself to see what they can learn about this huge mystery.

On this new world they find it a planet at odds with itself. Dinosaurs are in a constant battle with the equally savage, sentient, moving plant life in order to see who will rule this strange new world.

I love the idea of sentient dinosaurs.

How about the opposite Earth was naturally formed in our solar system. The dinosaurs there never went through the Chicxulub asteroid impact that killed off so many dinosaurs and life on Earth 65 million years ago.

Mammals never evolved beyond the small rodent stage.

Some dino's attain intelligence and develop a high level of civilization.

We need an explanation as to why, if the dino's kept evolving from 65 million years ago, they are not much more advanced than us. After all there had a 65 million year head start!

I propose that an earth that does not have 3/4 of its life wiped out does not have the ecological voids that allow for rapid evolution.

Anyway, the dinosaur civilization is very close to the existing human civilization in technology, but it has a reptilian outlook. Somewhat xenophobic and carnivore centric.

Kind of Gornish.

Some dino's see humans as a scientific discovery and wish to celebrate the existence of other high level life in our solar system, others see the humans and the other earth as a potential conquest.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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My God, you're on fire, Mach7!

And so is Pow, who posted his own brilliant concept on this same subject in a separate thread which our members can read by clicking HERE.

They're so different that there's no way they could be merged effectively, so I'm glad they each have their own thread. Cool

I was especially impressed by the way you addressed the problem of why dinosaurs took so long to evolve intelligence when we "ape men" did it faster. Your explanation makes perfect sense. You, sir, can "Think like a writer" — and I admire that ability.

As you pointed out, evolution is influenced by the pressure created when gaps occur in the ecosystem, and these gaps tend to be filled by new lifeforms.

I'd have never thought of that on my own. Kudos to you, sir. Cool

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mach7
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!

Thanks Bud! Much more detail needs to be worked out.

Have the dino's developed space flight?

What kind of society do they have? Probably not a democracy.

Is it a dictatorship? A theocracy? Anarchy?

Are more than one species intelligent? Probably not.

Are they carnivore? omnivore? herbivore? Probably carnivore. If so, the society is most likely a lose tribal co-operative, and could be some form of velociraptor. I think they hunted in packs.

What other questions need to be answered?
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Damn, Mark (if I may use your true name, sir, based on your email) you aren't just on fire. sir . . . you've gone nova! Shocked

I'll try to briefly address your queries to prevent my fingers from being blistered on my keyboard. Sad


mach7 wrote:
Have the dino's developed space flight?

I'd say no to this one, just to keep these folks confined to the New Earth and force mankind to deal with them there.

mach7 wrote:
What kind of society do they have? Probably not a democracy. Is it a dictatorship? A theocracy? Anarchy?

A Dino Democracy? Heavens no!

Let's have fun with the fact that the term Tyrannosaurus Rex translates as "king dinosaur". So, let,s put him on a thrown and see what happens! Smile


mach7 wrote:
Are more than one species intelligent? Probably not.

Excellent question! I think we must have a "cast system", with some dino-groups being the upper-crust, and some being in the lower class. But of course, sometimes the lower class produces a few geniuses!

mach7 wrote:
Are they carnivores? omnivore? herbivore? sProbably carnivores. If so, the society is most likely a lose tibal co-operative, and could be some form of velociraptor. I think they hunted in paks.


An important question, Mark. Confused

The dino population would remain carnivorous or herbivores when they became sentient .

Humans can choose to become "vegans" because we're omnivores and have the physiology to enjoy a dinner composed of a steak, a baked potato, and a salad.

But the dinos are stuck on Earth II with the kind of body which they were born with. In other words, they have to stick with the kind of food mommy puts on the table

But of course, that kind of thing is what supplies the drama for the story you proposed, Mark!

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mach7
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to go with the Dino society being a theocracy or lose tribal groups.

I would envision a single intelligent species, the raptors. They seem to have the best chance of developing a society. They hunt in packs, so some form of communication is necessary, there is pressure from other predators for food,

Maybe too much with all of the new earths life forms in existence.

Once they start gaining smarts they would out compete the other dino's and they would slowly die off.

Sadly (or not) the T-Rex would probably be the 1st to go. As a large apex predator it would have the lowest population and be subject to disruption the most.

Would the Raptors develop some form of livestock cultivation? Maybe farms of Parasaurolophus?
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Mark, that is some damn fine thinking! It prompted me to come up with the following responses.


mach7 wrote:
I would envision a single intelligent species, the raptors. They seem to have the best chance of developing a society. They hunt in packs, so some form of communication is necessary, there is pressure from other predators for food,

Right! In Jurassic Park we see evidence of their intelligence (working together, communicating, opening doors, etc) and their social skills (caring for the eggs).

mach7 wrote:
Once they start gaining smarts they would out compete the other dino's and they would slowly die off.

Naturally you mean the other carnivores would be eliminated, and the herbivores would thrive because of this. That benefits the raptors, who would continue to feed on them.

mach7 wrote:
Sadly (or not) the T-Rex would probably be the 1st to go. As a large apex predator it would have the lowest population and be subject to disruption the most.

Agreed, and the fact that the T-Rex didn't have effective arms and hands means their intelligence probably wouldn't develop anyway. They can't use tools. Sad

mach7 wrote:
Would the Raptors develop some form of livestock cultivation? Maybe farms of Parasaurolophus?

Brilliant, sir! Herds of herbivores would be the raptor's "cattle", and perhaps the Parasaurolophus would have enough intelligence to serve as "cowboys" to keep the herds confined to the fertile "range land". (Raptors are opposed to barbed wire, 'cause we all know ranchers prefer the "open range" for grazing. Laughing)





~ A trail hand, on the lookout for cattle russelin' raptors!

And since this version of evolution is an extended history for the dinosaurs (because the asteroid never hit Earth) some of the animals that actually did evolve later on might still emerge — thus providing a fitting kind of "poultry" for these Ranching Raptors!



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mach7
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely correct!

Thanks for the correction that only Carnivores would die off.

I absolutely LOVE the idea of using the Parasaurolophus as ranchers! Brilliant!

Next we need to figure out how the Raptors would evolve into a larger size and some form of tool using hands.

The size is no real problem, with the larger carnivores gone and plenty of food I think a larger size (maybe 4-6 ft tall) would naturally happen.

Tool using hand are another issue. Perhaps retractable claws?

Let's think about this for a bit.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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The fact that these dinosaurs are separated from the Extinction Event which happened in our own on Earth by 65 million years — giving them a much long period of evolution — means we can suggest any changes we want, compared to the the existing ones in the fossil record.

In fact, we should probably adjust the timeline on the other Earth to make the dinosaurs' history NOT as long as the millions of years it would be today if they hadn't been wiped out, 65 millions years ago.

With all this in mind, we can solve some of the problems caused by having two "Earths" in the solar system simply by putting this second one in a parallel universe — like in the series Sliders.

We can "have our cake and eat it too" by stating that the maiden voyage of the first-ever faster than light starship did something unexpected — it went into a parallel universe instead of just "folding space" to reach Alpha Centauri!

Oops . . . Embarassed

In other words, instead of traveling four light years instantly "in a straight line"' it went "sideways" into another dimension . . . which had a dinosaur-filled Earth. Very Happy

I assume we want the dinosaurs to be somewhat different from the ones in our dimension, but not so different that we lose the appealing idea of "sentient dinosaurs" (which is what started this enjoyable discussion). Very Happy

I'd rather not have the dinosaurs be look "humanoid" like this.






So, we can give them bigger brains (of course!), and better hands (an absolute must), and make the raptors look cool like the ones in Jurassic Park — instead of the small, feather-covered raptors that are apparently what they really looked like. Rolling Eyes
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tmlindsey
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating ideas. You guys might want to check this out...

https://tetzoo.com/blog/2021/8/30/dinosauroid-at-nearly-40-years-old

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Forgive me Mark, I got excited by some new ideas and revised my post above. Please read it again and see what you think of the "New and Improved" concept I proposed. Cool

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mach7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it, but it's getting away from the "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun" concept.

If Nova Earth is in a parallel dimension it does open up a lot of potential.

Myself I would like to stick with the 2nd Earth in the same orbit. Even though the existence of such a planet would be detectable from it's gravitational effects on planets/asteroids in our solar system.

It's interesting that the article tmlindsey linked shows humanoid reptiles, very similar to the Gorn in TOS's "Areana".

I do like that better than the pure(er) raptor bodied Gorn in the latter shows. YMMV.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mach7 wrote:
I like it, but it's getting away from the "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun" concept.

Myself I would like to stick with the 2nd Earth in the same orbit. Even though the existence of such a planet would be detectable from it's gravitational effects on planets/asteroids in our solar system.

I understand. I guess we can just agree to disagree on that point. Very Happy

That flaw in the movie's premise ruined it for me — along with the silly idea that the other planet was a "mirror image" of our Earth, with duplicates of all the people. Rolling Eyes

If it had been in a parallel universe, the "twins" of all the people would be more plausible.

Rather than keeping one of the weakest elements of the movie's plot, I thought perhaps we could have "the other side fo the sun" be (in effect) located in a parallel universe, thus preventing the illogical idea that an undetected gravity source was orbiting our sun on the other side.

The reason I suggested that the FTL starship sent them to the parallel universe (instead of going to it's destination in this universe) was to make the trip seem more like going to the far side of the sun, rather than to a distant star.

Concerning the "evolved" dinosaurs, it occurred to me that, compared to a human, a raptor has a superior physical form in terms of locomotion. If raptors evolved towards an upright, tail-less body, they'd be slower and less agile.

Consider the poor Gorn. It was even slower and less agile than Captain Kirk! So, that certainly wouldn't be the way raptors would evolve, would they? Confused

All raptors really need are better hands. And if they're smart enough to make weapons to hunt prey for a few hundred thousand years, I figure they'll lose the claws anyway.

However, if we're trying to design a more highly evolved raptor, we should probably consider the direction they were headed before the cosmos "struck 'em out" with an asteroid-sized fast ball, 65 million years ago.

We now know that raptors had feathers, and the video below makes a strong cause for the idea that evolution would have eventually turned raptors into seriously bad-ass birds! Shocked

As much as I love the JP raptors, I also like the idea of seriously bad-ass smart birds!
Cool

Prehistoric Planet - Did Velociraptor Have Feathers?


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mach7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the idea of bad ass intelligent Raptor/birds!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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When I watched Jurassic Park - Dominion today I was surprised by the introduction of a giant, feather-covered dinosaur with long claws on it's hands! I don't think that animal appears in the fossil record.

But it teamed up with a T-Rex and defeated the "largest carnivore in history"' during the climactic battle.


Jurassic World Dominion (2022) - T-Rex vs. Gigantosaurus Scene


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mach7
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dino's cooperating.

Not a good development.
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