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orzel-w
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 1865
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 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Maurice wrote: | | This all smacks of urban legend. |
And we certainly have plenty of those to go around!
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WayneO
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Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 3001
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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OK, time for a visual shot in the arm for FP!
Robby says "Take a look at the REST of Morbius's office Gentlemen!
FORBIDDEN PLANET, MORBIUS OFFICE / STUDY, 3D MODEL
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"Altaria all grown up!"
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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tmlindsey
Quantum Engineer
Joined: 18 Jul 2022
Posts: 397
Location: NW Florida
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Gord, that tour of Morbius' office is jaw-dropping! 
The designs of "the rest" of the office are incredible. It includes a drafting board with blueprints for Robby, and a beautiful science-and-communication station.
I made screen shots from the video. Click on any of the jpgs (except for the two "cropped" close-ups) to view the larger versions!
The Youtune video dubs in Morbius' voice during the above shot of the microphone at the science-and-communication station, when he warns the C-57-D not to land. The designer of this extension of Morbius' study is suggesting that he was sitting there when he called the ship!
Brilliant! 
At the rear of the office is an elevator that goes down to an area which includes TWO DIFFERENT cars for Robby!
The first one (on the left side of the image below) appears to be a cargo vehicle — in other words, it's Robby's pickup truck! 
Behind the "truck" we see Robby's passenger car from the movie.
But wait a minute! Neither of vehicles have WHEELS!
They're both anti-gravity vehicles which levitate! And that makes perfect sense, because we've always known that Robby's car couldn't possibly race along that rough terrain the way it supposedly does in the movie. 
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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orzel-w
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 1865
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | They're both anti-gravity vehicles which levitate! And that makes perfect sense, because we've always known that Robby's car couldn't possibly race along that rough terrain the way it supposedly does in the movie. |
Robby's retractable landing gear...
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WayneO
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ah-ha! Great minds think alike!
(Ironically, so do yours and mine.  )
We can surmise that perhaps the makers of Forbidden Planet desperately wished they could have made Robby's car float above the ground, but in 1956 the FX wouldn't have been very convincing. So, they just filmed the scenes with the wheeled vehicle and hoped nobody would judge them too harshly for it.
Well, call me irreverent, call me blasphemous — but I would love to see an "enhance" version of Forbidden Planet which presented wondrous changes, like a levitating car driven by Robby, and a CGI re-rendering of the ID monster which made a less like a cartoon.
Yes, I know, it looks amazing, despite the limitations of cell animation, but we all know that a CGI version would look very different. and if it were done well it could be even MORE spectacular!
Consider the way the extremely dated FX of TOS have been "upgraded" in that manner. I think they're awesome.
Besides, after watching Forbidden Planet countless times since 1956, I'd love to be occasionally surprised by a few enhanced scenes which use a upgrades.
Here's an example.
In the scene where Altaira and her pet tiger walk across the screen, she remains several feet behind the tiger because she and the tiger are a composite shot.
_____ Alta's Friends | Forbidden Planet (1956) HD
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So, I made the altered version below of that scene with Paint.net. I think it's an improvement. It demonstrates just how tame the tiger is with Altaira.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel
Space Ranger
Joined: 19 Feb 2023
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2023 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | Yes, I know, it looks amazing, despite the limitations of cell animation, but we all know that a CGI version would look very different. and if it were done well it could be even MORE spectacular!
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BLASPHEMER! BURN THE HERETIC!
I really don't see how CGI could equal, much less surpass joshua Meador's art and animation.
One of the pitch paintings for FP (probably in one of the early pages) shows Robby having a levitating vehicle. The only way they could have done a levitating car in the movie was by stop-motion animation. I don't know if MGM could have managed that. You can make book that they didn't have the budget for that.
David. |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just suggesting that the motion would look more convincing (as in, "smoother") if CGI were used.
We all know that stop motion animation lacks "motion blur", which is one of the things we fans of stop motion notice and responded to with positive feelings, simple because it reminds us how damn hard it was for Ray to create the illusion of "movement", one frame at a time!
Conversely, people who are NOT fans of stop motion spot that same tell-tale aspect and quickly say, "That look fake."
But I can imagine a CGI re-rendering of the ID monster in which the back-and-forth swings of it's glowing head/body are smoother and have a slight " vapor trail", making it look even more eerie (and less like cell animation).
But hey, that's just me. 
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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scotpens
Space Sector Commander
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 920
Location: The Left Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | One of the pitch paintings for FP (probably in one of the early pages) shows Robby having a levitating vehicle. The only way they could have done a levitating car in the movie was by stop-motion animation. |
Or they could have attached mirrors to the base of the vehicle, hiding the wheels and reflecting the ground. That's how the landspeeder was done in Star Wars.
For close shots, the entire vehicle could have been supported at the end of a crane arm, like they did with the hovercar in the Russian sci-film Planeta Bur (Planet of Storms). |
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orzel-w
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 1865
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Once when I was single-framing through the Id monster attack I noticed that the monster itself was animated with two frames per movement, while the blue ray gun "tracers" were single-frame animations. The ray blasts therefore ended up moving more smoothly.
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WayneO
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| orzel-w wrote: | | . . . the monster itself was animated with two frames per movement, while the blue ray gun "tracers" were single-frame animations. The ray blasts therefore ended up moving more smoothly. |
Ah-ha!
I'm sure a computer program could create the necessary "intermediate images" of the ID monster to replace the second "duplicate images", thus smoothing out the movement.
I Googled a question about the classic Disney animated features and found several sites that stated this.
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In the case of early Disney movies such as Snow White (1937) and Fantasia (1940), each frame was drawn by hand by an animator in a traditional studio.
This is mind-boggling when you consider that most Disney movies are made at 24 frames per second — that’s 24 individual drawings for each second of footage!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Krel
Space Ranger
Joined: 19 Feb 2023
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2023 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| orzel-w wrote: | | Once when I was single-framing through the Id monster attack I noticed that the monster itself was animated with two frames per movement, while the blue ray gun "tracers" were single-frame animations. The ray blasts therefore ended up moving more smoothly. |
To me this shows the skill and attention Joshua Meador paid to the scene. By having the beams using one frame while the ID uses two, the blaster bolts move faster because they are directed energy beams, while the ID moves slower because it has mass. The ID is projected energy, but it is energy as mass. It leaves footprints, bends metal stair (gangplank?) steps, and throws Jerry Farman like a rag doll.
David. |
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Maurice
Starship Navigator
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 542
Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | | orzel-w wrote: | | Once when I was single-framing through the Id monster attack I noticed that the monster itself was animated with two frames per movement, while the blue ray gun "tracers" were single-frame animations. The ray blasts therefore ended up moving more smoothly. |
To me this shows the skill and attention Joshua Meador paid to the scene. By having the beams using one frame while the ID uses two, the blaster bolts move faster because they are directed energy beams, while the ID moves slower because it has mass. The ID is projected energy, but it is energy as mass. It leaves footprints, bends metal stair (gangplank?) steps, and throws Jerry Farman like a rag doll.
David. |
What you are all describing is the standard method for hand-drawn cartoon animation. In many circumstances the human eye can be fooled into seeing movement in as few as 10 images per second, so from very early on animators figured out a way to cut down on work and cost was to shoot each drawing twice, so you'd only need 12 drawings per 24 frames of film. This is known as "shooting on twos".
Shooting on ones (24 drawings per second) was usually only used for fast actions. When you combine hand drawn animation with live action you are usually forced to animate on ones because the live action is on ones and it looks weird if the animation isn't at the same rate (Roger Rabbit is on ones for this reason). My guess to why Meador would have done the ID on twos was either for cost, or maybe someone thought that the unrealness of the thing didn't require the effort or shooting on twos, or both.
The blaster shots had to be on ones or it would have really stood out. If you you really want to see an animation-on-live-action frame mismatch, check out the tracer bullets during the climatic sequence of The Dam Busters. The animated tracers are held for four frames each, so there are only six drawings per second laid atop 24fps footage. It looks awful.
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"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2023 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Krel wrote: | To me this shows the skill and attention Joshua Meador paid to the scene. By having the beams using one frame while the ID uses two, the blaster bolts move faster because they are directed energy beams, while the ID moves slower because it has mass.
David. |
Respectfully, Krel, I must agree with Maurice. "Shooting on twos" is just a way for animators to save time money.
I submit that Mr. Meador's decision to 'shot on twos" during the Id monster scenes was based entirely on the cost of the project and the time he had to complete it.
Conversely, the classic animated features by Disney were "shot on ones" because Disney wanted the movements to look as real as possible — despite the fact that this doubled both the time and money.
But Johua Meador didn't have a team of animators working with him to make the Id monster's movements to look as real as possible, so he had to cut his work in half. Obviously the blaster bolts were less complex, and he wanted them to sail smoothly though the air, so they were shot on ones.
Nonetheless, David, I applaud your thinking, as well as the respect which your explanation demonstrates for Mr. Meador.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Maurice
Starship Navigator
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 542
Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | Krel wrote: | To me this shows the skill and attention Joshua Meador paid to the scene. By having the beams using one frame while the ID uses two, the blaster bolts move faster because they are directed energy beams, while the ID moves slower because it has mass.
David. |
Conversely, the classic animated features by Disney were "shot on ones" because Disney wanted the movements to look as real as possible — despite the fact that this doubled both the time and money. |
Disney mostly shot on twos, too, Bud.
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"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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