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Krel
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 Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:58 pm Post subject: ! |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | Ben Franklin nailed it when he said, "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." |
Ben should have added a final sentence. And will get neither.
In addition to A LOT of unfounded assumptions, the article makes a mistake. There are three basic Star Treks. The original series, the movies, which transitioned into, the Next Gen series.
In the original series, there is a monetary system, people are paid money. Star Fleet is subservient to a civilian government, there are civilian Ambassadors. People were made mistakes, and learn from them, sometimes. The political structure of the Federation, is more like a Confederacy. The member planets societies and politics are not to be interfered with. Starfleet personnel can be put on trial in civilian courts. Energy production is plentiful, varied and Sometimes extremely dangerous. A small amount of antimatter blew the atmosphere off a planet! The people act like real people.
In the Next Gen, people are perfect. Starfleet Officers don't argue, or lie, GR was very adamant about that. If you don't have the PC view, you are ridiculed. There is no Christian religion, others are okay. If you have Christian beliefs, you are treated as mentally defective. Ambitious people are looked down upon. There is no money, no lazy people and nobody takes advantage of the situation. Everyone is a good little drone. It is Gene Roddenberry's idea of a socialist utopia. And utopias are BORING!
You can make the argument that the Federation is a military dictatorship. Starfleet Officers are armed at all times, even on the Bridge. Starfleet Officers are the Ambassadors. People are put on trial in Starfleet Courts. Starfleet tells Federation members what to do.
David. |
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Robert (Butch) Day
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Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 1437
Location: Arlington, WA USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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And remember Mark Twain's take on utopias:
"All the people are basically cattle or sheep. And sooner or later the wolves appear."
_________________
Common Sense ISN'T Common |
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ralfy
Mission Specialist
Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 488
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | We see lots of wonderful things in the Star Trek universe that we all wish could be true, like hyperdrive and a lack of greedy people.
Hyperdrive might become a reality someday. But a lack of greedy people is not in mankind's future.
That's part of human nature. |
Greed hardly dominated among hunter-gather communities. It was only when various technologies were employed and surplus established that the opposite took place.
If it is true that greed is part of human nature, then with hyperdrive the level of greed should escalate, with small numbers of human beings owning hundreds of planets and the rest working for them. That is not what we see in the Star Trek Universe.
Given that, we need to understand that human nature is much more complex than we imagine, and that behavior such as greed may be enabled by multiple factors, many of them external to human nature.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | And yes, nobody "seeks more than they want", but some people want more than others. Some people want a hell of a lot -- and they should have the right to want it. The man who yearns to run a company shouldn't be forced to sweep the floors just because somebody else is happy with that job.
That's also part of human nature. |
There's a difference between wanting to deal with responsibilities that one can handle with wanting more money. What dominates in capitalism is the latter.
That's why you see wealth increase significantly among the rich without a proportionate increase in the amount of work that they do. In fact, much of their wealth increases simply because stock prices, etc., go up.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | There is no perfect system. Any political organization that protects personal freedom and encourages personal accomplishments is going to be misused by certain members of society. The only way to prevent the existence of a wealthy elite is prevent anyone from getting wealthy. |
This is what makes capitalism so ironic. The same "wealthy elite" became powerful because of the same protection and encouragement.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | That would mean no more Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Page, and Sergey Brin (the founders of Google) -- no more miraculous success stories of gifted men and women who followed a dream and changed the world.
Thank God that's part of human nature. |
Why skip Wall Street bankers, royal families, multinational corporations that fund "defense" industries, Big Pharma, the few mega-corporations that control much of food production worldwide, the few hundred people that own more money than the majority of the world's population, etc?
It is true that mass manufacturing and the Green Revolution from 1945 onward led to incredible increases in products made and food such that infant mortality rates dropped and life expectancy rates increased. But what were the cost of doing so? Decades of warfare as military powers fight over resources and bully weak countries, environmental damage and global warming, overpopulation, an increasing gap between rich and poor, global financial crises, and the threat of a resource crunch.
Some imagine that the Star Trek universe started with hyperdrive, etc. From what I remember, the story begins with multiple crises and a devastating global war that almost caused the demise of humanity. It was only when human beings could prove to the Vulcans and others that they could cooperate with each other that the race progressed.
From what I remember, the Vulcans had a similar history.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you condemn free enterprise just because intelligent people don't always play fair. |
There is a difference between free enterprise that aims to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and free enterprise that is part of markets that employ price mechanisms and gauge performance on maximization of profits (that is, those numbers in hard drives). The former can be seen in the Star Trek universe and the latter in free market capitalism.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | People are never going to play fair in the real world, because the dreaded human nature I keep talking about is a two-edge sword. Powerful men elevate themselves to leadership positions -- and sometimes these men are good and sometimes they're Adolf Hitler. |
If there is no other way to see human nature except in such a manner, then the race is truly doomed.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | You cannot create a political system that prevents the smart people from getting wealthy, and the wealthy people from running things -- because that would be a society which penalizes intelligence, initiative, and personal accomplishments. |
Yet you argued earlier that the wealthy elite should be controlled. And by others who also possess the same human nature?
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | I'm not condoning evils of our society, I'm just saying the best system we'll ever come up with will still have it's flaws. Ben Franklin nailed it when he said, "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." |
But what is this liberty? We argue that the wealthy elite become so because they are smart and intelligent, but we also believe that they are greedy.
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | A good system of government is like an effective medical treatment: it's better than being sick, but it always comes with a price. And there's no such thing as a medication that doesn't have unwanted side effects. Even aspirins give you ulcers. |
How is it effective when it comes with "unwanted side effects"? What happens when those side effects start to overwhelm the patient, which is what we are seeing right now?
| Bud Brewster wrote: | | As a society we should not want the government to provide our needs. We should want a government that protects our right and our ability to provide those needs for ourselves. |
But what happens if those needs involve protecting our rights?
We now have governments that essentially work for Big Business, including Wall Street, and all led by a wealthy elite that controls the bulk of wealth worldwide. The same elite provide credit to the government for services and to the public for consumer spending. The goal is to increase wealth each time. Anyone who challenges that system faces the police or the military, both of which are financed by the elite and armed by governments.
How can that wealth, which is essentially based on increasing production and use of goods and services, continue to grow in a world that faces overpopulation, a resource crunch, global warming, environmental damage, etc? |
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ralfy
Mission Specialist
Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 488
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| Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: Re: ! |
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| Krel wrote: | Ben should have added a final sentence. And will get neither.
In addition to A LOT of unfounded assumptions, the article makes a mistake. There are three basic Star Treks. The original series, the movies, which transitioned into, the Next Gen series.
In the original series, there is a monetary system, people are paid money. Star Fleet is subservient to a civilian government, there are civilian Ambassadors. People were made mistakes, and learn from them, sometimes. The political structure of the Federation, is more like a Confederacy. The member planets societies and politics are not to be interfered with. Starfleet personnel can be put on trial in civilian courts. Energy production is plentiful, varied and Sometimes extremely dangerous. A small amount of antimatter blew the atmosphere off a planet! The people act like real people.
In the Next Gen, people are perfect. Starfleet Officers don't argue, or lie, GR was very adamant about that. If you don't have the PC view, you are ridiculed. There is no Christian religion, others are okay. If you have Christian beliefs, you are treated as mentally defective. Ambitious people are looked down upon. There is no money, no lazy people and nobody takes advantage of the situation. Everyone is a good little drone. It is Gene Roddenberry's idea of a socialist utopia. And utopias are BORING!
You can make the argument that the Federation is a military dictatorship. Starfleet Officers are armed at all times, even on the Bridge. Starfleet Officers are the Ambassadors. People are put on trial in Starfleet Courts. Starfleet tells Federation members what to do.
David. |
From what I remember, there are references to credit in TOS, but I cannot remember most saying that they selected one career over another because they want more credit.
There are also businesses like mining concerns and characters concerned about drops in production due to one threat or another, but I think the goal of increased production is to meet one or another need that involves the common good (like ensuring that particular minerals are available to ships or communities that need them) rather than increased profits.
If there is anything that involves profits, it involves races that value credit more than anything else.
Given that, it appears that the Star Trek universe is a meritocracy that hardly involves money. Rather than having "drones," we instead see people who are allowed to pursue their interests, something that is possible given an abundance of resources. |
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ralfy
Mission Specialist
Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Posts: 488
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