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First Men in the Moon (1964)
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johnnybear
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You see, I loved the ending of First Men and the way you could think about what happened to Cavour on the moon and Bedford back on earth! It was sad, but I agree it wasn't as exciting as Jason or Sinbad, how could it be??
JB
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

After watching my exquisite download of this movie today for the first time in years, I was very impressed with the special effects and the fine photography! Very Happy






However, what I continue to dislike is the blatant dishonesty of Arnold Bedford (Edward Judd) and all his shifty schemes.

I also dislike the overblown performance of Lionel Jeffries as Professor Cavor. Rolling Eyes

I must admit, however, that the scene in which Bedford suddenly assaults the selenites while they're urging the two men to cross the rock bridge is very dramatic. Cavor pleads with him to stop tossing the selenites off the bridge!

Carvor knows that Bedford's savage acts of violence doom his own hopes of establishing friendly relations with the selenites.

Also on the positive side are the scenes of the caverns on the Moon. They are spectacular, along with the special effects that portray the selenite technology.






As for Harryhausen's animation, I confess that I was more impressed with it during my recent viewing than ever before!

Aside from the Moon Cow scene, the animation lacks the dramatic action we see with the cyclops and the ymir.






But the animation of the selenites effectively demonstrates the way Harryausen's skill allowed him to create characters which could express emotions with subtle movements!





Perhaps the most impressive scene in the movie is the remarkable confrontation between Cavor and the selenite's supreme leader. The noble scientists makes no attempt to white wash the sins of mankind when questioned about the true nature of our race! Sad





When the selenite leader learns that Cavor is the only one who can make cavorite and allow other men to reach the Moon, he tells the noble scientist that he and his secret must remain on the Moon.

I realized that the selenite leader didn't say Cavor must die . . . just that he must not leave!

We can infer from this that the lunar aliens were not planning to kill the humans — only to prevent them from making it possible for mankind to threaten the Moon with the same death and destruction we have wreaked upon our own race . . . Sad

This viewing of the movie has inspired me to make more comments about it based on ideas I had about the story and the science it presents.

I'll ponder those thoughts for a few days and make another post soon. Cool

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Pow
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray first read H. G.s classic novel Wells 1901 novel First Men in the Moon and he said that his passion for it never subsided.

Apart from the George Melies film A Trip to the Moon (1902), there had been only one other filmed version of the story: a 1919 Gaumont British film directed by J.L.V. Leigh.

Nigel Kneale who wrote the script came up with the scenes of having the movie open with the United Nations spaceship making the 'first' manned landing on the moon. This was his idea of updating the Wells novel, as well as appealing to the modern day audience (and science fiction devotees) who were much more familiar with the scientific facts everyone was learning about the moon from television coverage of the space race.
Kneale also came up with the plot point of having Cavor have a cold so that when he was left behind, the bacteria wipes out the inhabitants of the moon.

Inspired by the ending of Wells classic novel The War of the Worlds no doubt and the demise of the Martians.

Ray designed the look of the alien civilization for the film.

Because the Selenites were to be insect-like, he decided that all the doors and apertures were to be hexagonal, a common structure in the insect world.

The budget prevented the construction of full sets for the moon sequences. Ray built miniature sets and incorporated the actors with the aid of travelling mattes for the tunnels, landscapes, lens complexes, oxygen machines and the palace of the Grand Lunar.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How a cavorite sphere might be used to take a round trip to the Moon!

We watched First Men in the Moon in the All Sci-Fi's Chatzy Room a few weeks back, and I gained a new respect for it.

However, today I started thinking about the cavorite sphere the characters used to get to the Moon and back to Earth . . . and I realized that Professor Cavor's wondrous anti-gravity device would not work quite as simply as the movie demonstrates.

Here's what I mean.

The reason the sphere shot up into the sky when Cavor closed all the cavorite shutters was because they cut off a large percentage of the Earth's gravity and made the sphere suddenly much less heavy.

Bear in mind that the shutters didn't completely cover the sphere, so the sphere couldn't become totally weightless. However, let's be generous and assume that the weight was cancelled in the manner H.G. Wells described in his novel.

Wells states that the cavorite sphere would make the air above it weightless, causing it to shoot upward, thus sucking up the weightless sphere and sending it racing towards space.

Sadly, that is not what would happen. Sad

Consider this; when you're standing up, the gravity which holds your feet to the floor is not generated only by the one-square-foot area you're standing on.

The gravity which acts on your body also comes from the entire area around you. In fact, a certain amount of the gravity is pulling on you at an angle from all sides — but since it's equally distributed in all directions, it equals out and you don't fall over! Very Happy

I suspect that Wells' just fudged a bit on the complex science involved in his science fiction novel to keep it from being overly complex for his readers.

As for the 1964 movie, the scene in First Men in the Moon which showed the cavorite sphere blasting straight up through the greenhouse was completely wrong. Sad

Please forgive the long explanation below, but I think you'll enjoy it, because yesterday I realized that a weightless sphere coated in cavorite actually would leave the Earth . . . but for a very different reason than the one used by Wells and Harryhausen!

Buckle up, folks. Here's comes some real science! Cool
______________________________________________

The surface of the Earth is spinning 1,000 mph at the equator, although it's traveling slower as you approach the two poles.

Despite this fact, there is no measurable "centrifugal force" affecting objects on the surface, because the Earth's circumference is 24,000 miles, which means it takes 24 hours (one full day) to make one rotation.

Therefore, even at the equator the surface isn't spinning around fast enough to cause any measurable centrifugal force.

Gravity, of course, keeps all objects on the surface, but if an object (like the cavorite sphere) suddenly became weightless it wouldn't shoot straight UP like the sphere in the movie. It would simply keep going 1,000 mph in the same direction as the Earth's surface and all the objects around it, even though it was no longer held down by gravity!

In short, nothing much would happen.

The sphere would, however, act like a hot air balloon, because the sphere would be lighter than an equal volume of air. But since the sphere is only about 25 feet in diameter, it wouldn’t have much more lift than a weather balloon like this one — and the guy in the photo is having no trouble holding on to it.



__________


In fact, Cavor could open a shutter on the bottom of the sphere and give it just enough weight to make it hover, rather than rise.

Surprisingly enough, however, the sphere would soon begin to rise up slowly for a completely difference reason.

The reason is inertia.

Inertia causes a moving object to continue along at the same speed and direction it's currently traveling unless it's acted upon by external forces. (Weight is different from mass, and mass is what causes inertia.)

So, even a nearly-weightless object like the cavorite sphere (with one shutter open on the bottom to make it hover) will continue to travel along with the surface of the Earth in a perfectly normal manner.

However, at this point the sphere would begin to do something very abnormal! Shocked

Over the next sixty minutes the sphere (and the land it formerly rested on) will travel 1,000 miles as the Earth rotates. No surprise there, right?

But during that time, the sphere would get further from the land below, even though it's NOT actually "floating up like a balloon"!

Here's where things get delightfully weird and wonderful, guys. Stay with me on this, because we're going to the Moon! Very Happy

The reason the sphere starts to rise up is because the surface of the Earth is going around in a 24,000 mile-wide circle . . . while the suspended sphere is traveling in a straight line — thanks to inertia.

Let's pretend the sphere was being launched in Ecuador, the South American country right on the equator. Soon after it became weightless, it would appear to float upward very slowly.

But what's really happening is that the ground is "rolling down below the object" as the Earth rotates.

(Wait . . . what!?) Shocked

Sounds crazy, I know . . . but I can prove it. Very Happy

Remember, both the sphere and the land under it are traveling 1,000 mph, along with all the air around them. Naturally none of this is apparent to an observer . . . who would also be traveling 1,000 mph.

Now, here comes the really good part. Very Happy

Eventually the suspended sphere would keep right on traveling in a straight line at 1,000 mph, still positioned directly over the place where it first became weightless. It hasn't moved an inch horizontally from — but it is moving vertically, very slowly.

The sphere just remains inches above the ground, moving in a straight line because of inertia . . . but the ground below it can't actually do that! It rolls along with the rest of Earth's surface, a circular path which is governed by the Earth's round shape!

As the hours pass, the sphere's height above the ground visibly increases . . . but it's only because the ground beneath it is dropping lower and lower!

In about six hours it will be hundreds of miles directly above the launching point, and then it will sail right off into space!

I know that's hard as hell to visualize because it's so damn counter intuitive. So, here's a few visual aids. Study the two images below. These illustrations are showing a launch site in Ecuador, right on the equator.

The first one shows the straight-line path of the floating sphere. Ecuador would rotate toward the East and eventually drop below the horizon, while the sphere would remain above it, getting higher and higher until is passed through the atmosphere, still traveling 1,000 mph.



This second image shows a view from the South Pole, with the Earth turning clockwise and the equator extending around the circumference.

The two blue dots represent the sphere, first at it's starting place on the equator, and then out in space, still traveling at 1,000 mph in a straight line because of inertia.






One of the green dot shows the launching place on the equator, which will move with the rotating Earth and end up where the second green dot is located, well below the sphere's blue dot when the sphere is out in space.

So, the sphere is launched into space by traveling horizontally at 1,000 mph in a straight line until it flies right out of the atmosphere!

Pretty wild, huh? Very Happy

In Harryhausen's movie, the sphere shot upward, crashed through the greenhouse roof, and soared into the night sky. It looked great . . . but unfortunately that's not what would have happened to the cavorite sphere when it became weightless.

The sphere would just start rising up very slowly until it bumped the glass roof of the greenhouse. I suppose the glass roof would hold it for a while, but finally it would break and release the sphere.

So much for the dramatic lift-off! Rolling Eyes

But let's amend the scene so that the sphere is sitting on open ground. In that situation the sphere could rise up slowly and, over a period of about six hours, travel higher and higher until it left the atmosphere, the way the images above illustrate.

Once the sphere is in space, its actual forward motion would become more apparent as Cavor and Bedfore gaze out the sphere's portholes and watching the surface of the Earth receding at 1,000 mph.

But how will the sphere get to the Moon if it's going in the wrong direction? Confused

Well, if the Moon happens to be rising on the eastern horizon at the moment the sphere becomes weightless, it would be headed directly towards it — because the Moon would be in the direction the sphere is propelled by the rotating Earth, the moment the ties of gravity released it.






If all this sounds ridiculous, try thinking of the sphere as the stone in young King David's sling when he slew Goliath. If the stone was released from its leather pouch at just the right moment when David whirled it 'round and 'round, inertia would send it zipping off in the direction of Goliath's head, and the giant would come crashing down! Very Happy

Just for fun, let's assume that the cavorite sphere was launched on the equator at just the right moment to send it racing along parallel to the Earth's surface and headed straight towards the rising Moon on the horizon.

After several tranquil hours of floating along like a balloon, getting further and further from land below, the sphere does what a balloon can't do, which is float right up out of the atmosphere, still traveling 1,000 miles and hour, and still headed straight towards the point in the heavens were the Moon was when the sphere was launched.

Unfortunately, by that time the moon won't there anymore. Sad

That's because the Moon has been traveling 2,288 mph in it's orbit, so it's well past the point in the sky where it was located when the sphere was launched.

Obviously a course correction is need. But how much correction?

Well, let's figure that out mathematically. We must consider how fast the sphere is traveling and how far is it from the Moon. We know both of those facts, of course. The sphere is traveling 1,000 mph, and the distance to the Moon is about 240,000 miles.

The math is so easy I can do it in my head! 24 hours in a day X 1,000 mph = 24,000 miles per day. So, it will take the sphere 10 days to reach the Moon's orbit. Very Happy

But as I said, the Moon won't be where it was when the sphere was launched.

Therefore, if Cavor and Bedford want to arrive at the point in space where the Moon is located, they'll have to either depart 10 days before the Moon arrives at that point, or they'll have to adjust the velocity of the sphere so that is arrives just when the Moon has returned to that point in it's orbit.

Unfortunately the cavorite sphere can not accelerate, decelerate, or change course like a conventional spacecraft.

Besides that, there's the fact that in the 1964 movie, the cavorite sphere didn't launch from Ecuador, it launched from England. That means it won't be traveling 1,000 mph, it will only be traveling 645 mph — which is the rotational speed of the Earth's surface at that latitude. (I looked it up.) Very Happy

So, the trip to the Moon will actually take 15 days.

Based on this fact, the sphere needs to launch 15 days prior to the moment when the Moon is rising in the east.

Now that we've figured out how to get the sphere to the Moon, how can we slow the damn thing down and land it without killing the crew! Sad

I gave that a lot of thought . . . and here's what I came up with. Very Happy

Since the sphere used the complete absence of gravity from all directions to allow the inertia of Earth's rotation to propel it towards the Moon, we have to find a way to use the presence of gravity coming from directly behind it to decelerate the sphere.

If the sphere's shutters were closed on the side facing the Moon during it's approach, while the shutters were open on the side facing the Earth behind it, the gravitational force would slow the sphere to some degree.

But would it be enough? Confused

Well, maybe not — but we can increase the effectiveness of this maneuver by having the sphere schedule its launch date so that the Sun is on the opposite side of the Earth from both the Moon and the sphere.

In other words, the approach should take place during a lunar eclipse, when the Moon is in the Earth's shadow. The alignment of the Sun and the Earth would increase the gravitational pull on the sphere and slow it down.






Ironically, a lunar eclipse takes place in the movie while Bedford and Cavor are on the Moon! Cool

Gentlemen, I certainly can't prove if mathematically, but it seems at least possible that the combined gravitational pull of both the Earth and the Sun behind the sphere — with absolutely no gravitational influence from the Moon ahead of the sphere — might be able to decrease the sphere's 645 mph velocity enough to allow a reasonably soft landing to take place.






As a matter of fact, I sincerely believe that this same arrangement of gravitation forces might actually allow the sphere to lift off and return to Earth!

The sphere would have to leave within a day or so of it's arrival on Moon, while the Earth and the Sun are still close to together in the lunar sky. With the sphere rendered weightless by the closed shutters on the lower side, and all the shutters open on the upper side, the gravity from the Earth and the Sun would actually lift it slowly and draw it back towards the Earth!

What a wild idea! The cavoite sphere would be resting on the surface of the Moon, but it could totally neutralize the Moon's gravity and then be raised up and brought back to Earth by the combined gravity of the Earth and Sun! Mr. Green






Furthermore, the fact that the Sun would not be precisely behind the Earth at this point could actually work to the crews' advantage!

With careful manipulation of the shutters during the return trip, the sphere's flight path could be controlled so that the sun would actually pull the sphere slightly to one side of the Earth, allowing it to brush past the upper atmosphere, slowing it gradually.

Bear in mind that the goal would be to adjust the weight of the sphere with the shutters so that it becomes, in effect, an extremely lightweight object in a slow orbit, skimming the atmosphere as the orbit decays.

As it gradually dips further into the atmosphere — slowing even more — the shutters could be adjusted to make the sphere so light that it drifts slowly towards the ground, a virtual "hot air balloon" that could be raised and lowered at will!

The crew could seek out the wind currents that would take them in the most favorable direction until they reached a suitable region in which to make a gentle landing! Very Happy

In fact, there's really no reason why the sphere couldn't float around for hours (or even days) while the crew maneuvered it, using wind currents at different levels!

Gentlemen, my description of the entire journey might be a bit overly optimistic, but I think I've actually outlined the manner in which a cavorite sphere could make a round-trip journey to the Moon! Cool

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent analysis! However, there's also the underlying principle of "cavorite" to consider.

Cavor says he's invented a substance that cuts off the force of gravity -- the way opaque materials block light or "Roentgen's rays" (later to be known as X-rays) can be blocked by a sheet of lead. But gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity isn't a part of the electromagnetic spectrum -- in fact, it isn't a form of energy at all. According to Einstein's general relativity, gravity is a bending or curvature of space-time around an object. You can't block it or turn it on and off with a switch!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thanks for the kind words, Scot! Very Happy

Originally my post above said, "Apparently Wells' understanding of gravity was a bit shaky . . . "

But before finally posting it I revised the comment so it didn't sound like I was suggesting I was smarter than H.G. Wells! Embarassed

So, I said his instead.

"I suspect that Wells' just fudged a bit on the complex science involved in his science fiction novel to keep it from being overly complex for his readers."

In other words, my fanciful description of what a cavorite sphere would do when it was made weightless starts out by granting the properties of cavorite which Wells describe, in spite of the fact that isn't scientifically correct.

Once that assumption was made (just for the fun of it), I hoped that everything I described was accurate, based on the initial assumption.

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud, your description of the physics behind the story is spot on....IF you assume that gravity works in the 19th century way!

BUT....There is a redemption to your theory!

Gravity is not a "force". And it's not caused by the intersection of an "object" in the space=time continuem. It is the intersection of MASS in that continuem.

Mass is caused by the Higgs Boson inserted in sub-atomic particles. This Boson is generated into these particles at the Quark level. One thing that does not contain the Higgs Boson is the Photon....This is why they travel at the maximum speed of light and have NO mass!

secondary....The Universe is permeated by the Higgs Field. This field (Like the "Force" binds and holds the Universe together) is what interacts with the Higgs Boson to generate mass. It is the "Force" that truly allows our Universe to exist!

IF Cavorite acts like a Faraday Cage that shields from electro-magnetic waves, it shields from the Higgs force....therefore while it does not create an "anti-gravity" it does create a negatory or null gravity. This could act very much as you describe! Although I think an additional source of thrust may be advisable.

It would be much like sailing through the stars by the winds of the Cosmos!

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

That certainly sounds promising, Gord! Cool

I don't really understand the Higgs Boson concept (although God knows I've tried . . . ) so I really don't know what to say about your comment.

But Scotpens certainly seems to have a better handle on this subject than I do, so I'm hoping he'll comment on what you said (and maybe provide a "Physics for Dummies" version for me). Laughing

However, I was aware of what he said about gravity in his post above.


Scotpens wrote:
Gravity isn't a part of the electromagnetic spectrum -- in fact, it isn't a form of energy at all. According to Einstein's general relativity, gravity is a bending or curvature of space-time around an object. You can't block it or turn it on and off with a switch!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Man in the Moon was the only film that Ray shot using the Panavision anamorphic system. this gave a breathtakingly wider image than conventional cinema, and was developed in part by Hollywood to stave off the growing threat of television.

There were compromises along the way. For the first time, Ray used actors in rubber suits for the principal creatures, something he had always abhorred, but this decision was not taken lightly. "Several scenes called for masses [of] smaller worker Selenites, which would have taken an eternity to animate. So we had to resort to using children in suits. I designed a suit [which was] made into twenty-five latex costumes. Low-key lighting helped."

Most revealing of all are the detailed sketches for the unrealized sequence of the mooncalves and their chrysalis chambers where they transform into giant moths.

Harryhausen: The Lost Movies by John Walsh.
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