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20 Million Miles to Earth (1957)
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Pow
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with scotpens coment regarding model work done via wires, Bud.

While there certainly exists poor model work in both film & television,there are some splendid example of it.

Scotpens mentions the Flying Sub scenes on VTTBOTS as one example of well done model work.

2001: A Space Odyssey is stunning to look at to this day with their outer space scenes.

Like any special/visual effect in existence, you can see shining examples & poor ones depending on the film or tv show.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

First of all, I'd like to retract this statement, please.

" . . . all FX prior to CGI that involved models on wires that dangled and swung back and forth look phony as hell."

I'll amend it to read " . . . many FX using models on wires look phony."

You guys are correct in saying that there are, however, plenty of good examples.

As for 2001: A Space Odyssey and pretty much anything made after it, those FX weren't done with moving models on wires, filmed by a stationary camera. They were done with stationary models and computer controlled cameras — and all of those FX are gorgeous.




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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:04 am; edited 4 times in total
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Pow
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops, you are quite right regarding how 2001: ASO was done without models on wires.

It gets confusing due to that time period. Models on wires were still being employed at the same time as models on stationary mounts.

I believe the Eagles on Space: 1999 may have used both techniques.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I knew about the process of stop motion before seeing this film, but that knowledge didn't effect my enjoyment of it in the least!

There is a certain suspension of belief that is required in viewing ANY genre movie!

If anything, I think the current CGI process is too fast and too complicated for my poor old brain to process!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
I believe the Eagles on Space: 1999 may have used both techniques.

Gerry and Sylvia Anderson were the king and queen of models on wires, the literal puppet masters of science fiction, giving us shows like Fireball XL5 and Thunderbirds. I'd be surprised if they used the motion control camera method very often, if at all.

Their work is definitely the except to my statement about spaceships on wires not looking convincing.

Wikipedia says this about the FX on Space: 1999.

Rather than relying on the expensive and time consuming blue screen process, as for Star Trek, Johnson's team often employed a technique that went back to the earliest days of visual effects: spacecraft and planets would be filmed against black backgrounds, with the camera being rewound for each successive element. As long as the various elements did not overlap, this produced convincing results.

The motion control method is dependent on blue screening to provide both a negative and positive matte element that matches perfectly, so that a spacecraft can be matted against a background and have a clean edge with no fuzzy matte line, like the used to in the old days. Very Happy


Gord Green wrote:
I think I knew about the process of stop motion before seeing this film, but that knowledge didn't effect my enjoyment of it in the least

Gord, perhaps I misunderstood you, but when I'm watching stop motion, the knowledge of how it's done definitely DOES effect my enjoyment.

For me, the constant awareness of what [i]appears[i] to be a living, breathing creature but is actually an articulated model made of latex over a steel skeleton, being photographed thousands of times in slightly different positions, thrills me right down to my toes
Very Happy

Rather than "suspend my disbelief", I marveled at the skill it took for the animator to plan out the speed and direction of each moving part, varying the distances the model is repositioned each time to create the illusion of fast or slow movements.

And then there are the dramatic poses which contribute to the graceful appearance of the creatures, like we see in the clip below.[/size]

______________ Who Left the Ymir in the Barn


__________

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Pow
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fun Fact:The interior set of the spaceship was the set originally used for the US Navy ship from the classic 1954 film "The Caine Mutiny."

I always have found it quite interesting how sets from one movie or tv production are reused for other productions.

The city of Shangri-La from the 70s musical version of Lost Horizon was modified to become the Shaolin Monastery for the television series Kung Fu.

Sets from the Lost In Space TV-Movie/Pilot were utilized for the Battlestar Galactica tv show as the Battlestar Pegasus.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud wrote:
For me, the constant awareness of what [i]appears[i] to be a living, breathing creature but is actually an articulated model made of latex over a steel skeleton, being photographed thousands of times in slightly different positions, thrills me right down to my toes

Of course that is so, but what I'm saying is that even though I know HOW the process is done, it in no way changes my enjoyment of WHAT is happening on the screen!

Except when the effect is done so badly that it distracts from the story being told. It's like trying to read a badly written story with errors in grammer, spelling and form etc. You certainly know how language works, but the sloppy process makes the story unreadable.

Thankfully, Ray Harryhausen transcended sloppiness and produced creations from the heart. His works were true pieces of art
.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
Of course that is so, but what I'm saying is that even though I know HOW the process is done, it in no way changes my enjoyment of WHAT is happening on the screen!

Clearly I misunderstood your meaning. Sorry about that. Embarassed

Your statement sounded a little like a guy saying, "Just because the girl was drop-dead gorgeous, that didn't stop me from loving her!" Laughing

I guess I wouldn't have misunderstood your meaning if you'd said something like, "Even though I know HOW the process is done, it doesn't hamper my suspension of disbelief."

I think we both feel that seeing Harryhausen's work is like watching a great magician perform an illusion that is totally convincing . . . even though we know it can't possibly be real!
Very Happy



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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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Skullislander
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching that fascinating time-lapse clip there it hits home to me that Harryhausens' very 'life-force' is being sapped from his soul into his cinematic work.

I do not think he actually minded.....

WHAT a legacy, though!
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope no one is suggesting there was any kind of computer controlled motion control on 2001. They had some motor driven camera rigs, but nothing on the order of the programmable, repeatable action of the Dykstraflex used on Star Wars. Star Wars and Close Encounters were where computer driven motion control cameras really came into the fore.

A lot of the shots in 2001 were done on animation stands using high-resolution photographic cutouts, notably all the satellite bombs, the Pan Am plane, and many shots of the Aries IB and the Moonbus. Many of the mattes were hand painted, much as on Forbidden Planet.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
As for 2001: A Space Odyssey and pretty much anything made after it, those FX weren't done with moving models on wires, filmed by a stationary camera. They were done with stationary models and computer controlled cameras — and all of those FX are gorgeous.

Thanks for the correction, sir. Very Happy

My error stemmed from a misunderstanding of statements I've read like this one from the Wikipedia article about 2001.
________________________________

For most shots the model was stationary and the camera was driven along a track on a special mount, the motor of which was mechanically linked to the camera motor — making it possible to repeat camera moves and match speeds exactly.
________________________________

The point I was making, of course, was that 2001 marked the end of "models on wires" for the most part. As you pointed out, the process was refined and improved in the years that followed.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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Skullislander
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The approach Kubrick and his team used for multiple passes in the elaborate model shots in 2001 was the same approach as used since the silent era: winding the film back after a masked portion has been exposed, then using the same film strip for a counter-matte in order to record the exact same linear shot again.

They also used projected images front-beamed onto a reflective card I understand, to represent human activity as seen in tiny 'windows' in some of the model shots.

So yes, very different to what followed in the Star Wars era.
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skullislander wrote:
The approach Kubrick and his team used for multiple passes in the elaborate model shots in 2001 was the same approach as used since the silent era: winding the film back after a masked portion has been exposed, then using the same film strip for a counter-matte in order to record the exact same linear shot again.

They also used projected images front-beamed onto a reflective card I understand, to represent human activity as seen in tiny 'windows' in some of the model shots.

So yes, very different to what followed in the Star Wars era.

Front projection was used on-set, but I don't recall it being used on the model/animation stand shots, where I think it was rear-projection, but I can check.
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:

...

...The one below was a solo effort. Click on the screen shots to watch it on YouTube. Cool


Just checked out all your animation stuff on YouTube. It looks and sounds like you videotaped the films being projected. Is that right? I scan film at the Internet Archive, so if you ever want those animated films properly digitized, let me know.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thanks for your very kind offer! Very Happy

Actually, no videotape was involved. I simply projected the original 8mm film onto a piece of white poster board taped to a closet door at the end of a darken hallway in my apartment back around 2004 and used this digital camera on a tripod —



________


— to make digital videos of the films. Despite the fact that the camera is an old 4 megapixel device, I doubt if a newer one could improve the quality of the 8mm film under the same circumstances.

However, I'm sure a direct scan of the film would be better, and if you'd like for me to mail the original reels to you so you can scan the footage (and mute the annoying projector noise, as well as edit them so that each animation section is a separate video), I would be very grateful! Very Happy

PM me your mailing address and I'll gladly send you the 8mm films. Very Happy

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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