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20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954)
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow (quoting Bill Warren) wrote:
. . . By the end of the film, Nemo is still the brooding, tragic, enigmatic figure he was at the beginning; we still know very little about him. He says that he was cast into prison, but we never know why. To try to claim his scientific genius for the purposes of warfare?

I thought it was made pretty clear in the dialogue.
Quote:
Is murder a right reserved for that hated nation that has taken everything from me? Everything but my secret, the secret of my submarine boat and the energy that propels it. They tried. They cast me into prison, and when they failed . . . When they failed, they tortured my wife and young son to death.


Pow (quoting Bill Warren) wrote:
Kirk Douglas, a good actor, is hammy in an unfortunate role. In the original book, Ned Land is almost an enigmatic a character as Nemo.

In the script by Earl Felton, however, Ned Land becomes an obnoxious, unlikable blowhard. He is a vulgar boor. At the time the film was made, vulgarity was often used to indicate common sense. He's argumentative, he endangers his fellow prisoners by foolhardy escape attempts.

It's a lively enough performance, but Douglas is affected, artificial, and vaudevillian. It may be his worst screen performance, and it should have been his best.

Considering all the great roles Douglas played, I don't know why it "should have been his best" performance. But I agree, he's obnoxious and irritating as Ned Land. I suppose his character was meant to be the comic relief -- singing and strumming his homemade banjo, doing "cute" scenes with Esmeralda the sea lion.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren.

Kirk Douglas, a good actor, is hammy in an unfortunate role. In the original book, Ned Land is almost an enigmatic a character as Nemo.

Disagree. Ned was a lusty seaman who was fond of alcohol, fist fights, and floozies. But he bonded with Peter Lorre, regarding him as a shipmate with whom he could trade jokes and swap punches! Very Happy

Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren.

In the script by Earl Felton, however, Ned Land becomes an obnoxious, unlikable blowhard. He is a vulgar boor. At the time the film was made, vulgarity was often used to indicate common sense. He's argumentative, he endangers his fellow prisoners by foolhardy escape attempts.

He's Vulgar. (Why? Because he wouldn't eat saute of unborn octopus?) Confused

He's a boor. (Well, of course . . .) Laughing

He's argumentative? (Certainly!)

He argues with Nemo's arrogant insistence on keeping the three men prisoner after almost drowning them! Did Bill Warren think Ned was just supposed to accept that kind of treatment? Shocked

He endangers his fellow prisoners? How, by trying to escape? Were they supposed to feel safe and protected while in Nemo's custody?


Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren

It's a lively enough performance, but Douglas is affected, artificial, and vaudevillian. It may be his worst screen performance, and it should have been his best. My dislike of his performance is intellectual, not emotional.

"Artificial and vaudevillian" is a snobbish way of describing the acting style in many classic movies when compared to today's "realistic" acting in serious dramatic productions. Kirk Douglas' acting was often exaggerated and flamboyant, which is why people like Frank Gorshin could easily imitate him. Very Happy

And since Kirk was playing a swaggering seaman and a master harpooner, his exaggerated and flamboyant behavior seems just perfect.


Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren

His big song, A Whale of a Tale, is amusing and Douglas sings it with gusto, but the song is about as appropriate to 1868 shipping as an outboard motor. It's definitely an early fifties novelty song.

What a minute . . . I'm quite familiar with numerous 1950s novelty songs, and they never bear any resemblance to salty sea shanties like the one below — but "Whale of a Tale" certainly does. And both are quite "appropriate to 1868 shipping".

______________ Drunken Sailer - Irish Rovers


__________


Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren

Paul Lukas is almost tiresomely drab as Professor Pierre Arronax. Apparently all he had to do was be there, and that he is. He doesn't do anything else than simply exist.

Okay, this one I agree with!

Paul Lukas is such a bloke of wood in this movie that if the Nautilus sank, Lukas would bob right back up to the surface!
Laughing
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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Pow
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Bud, with your observations regarding the Ned Land character. He's a lot of fun and he brings some zest and color to the cast.

Let's face it, Nemo & Arronax are very serious roles. The Peter Lorre character is a timid worrier. So the movie really needed a larger-than-life character to offset the others. If Ned was played as somber & enigmatic as Warren says he is in the classic Jules Verne novel, it would have brought the energy down for the film. Then all of the characters would be deadly serious, and that could become monotonous to the audience.

It would also take away from the Captain Nemo role.

Look, ya don't hire Kirk Douglas to play subtle.

I would disagree with you regarding Paul Lukas as the good professor. He is an older scientist. By nature they usually are reserved individuals and are thoughtful and measured in their actions. I felt that was exactly what was required with Arronax. He is conflicted throughout the film.

He is in awe of the brilliant Nemo and his creations. He is seeing the undersea world he has devoted his research to in a way like he never could have imagined.

Yet he wrestles with his conscience over Nemo's attacks on ships and the drowning of those crews.

I felt Lukas performed his role just fine.

However, I did a LOL on your "block of wood comment" Bud. Good one.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
I would disagree with you regarding Paul Lukas as the good professor. He is an older scientist. By nature they usually are reserved individuals and are thoughtful and measured in their actions. I felt that was exactly what was required with Arronax. He is conflicted throughout the film.

Good comment, Mike. I can't dispute your analysis of Professor Arronax character.

However, I don't think a character who is a "reserved individual . . . thoughtful and measured in [his] actions" needs to act so much like an elder French undertaker who is comforting the bereaved! Sad

(And just for the record, his accent is very annoying . . . Rolling Eyes)

But here's a radical idea for you to ponder!

Supposed Arronax had been played by . . . Herbert Lom!

We agree that Mr. Lom made a great Captain Nemo, a man who is also a "reserved individual . . . thoughtful and measured in [his] actions".

Therefore, I think Herbert Lom (properly aged with skillful makeup in 1954 to look a bit more like this —






— would be the kind of Professor Arronax who could go head-to-head with the iron-willed Captain Nemo and attempt to convince him that his actions were wrong!

Herbert Lom could present his case with both dignity and passion . . . unlike Luca's version as Professor Mahogany, whose performance was like a phone call from an elderly relative who wanted to tell you about his recent visit to the doctor. Rolling Eyes

Mike, in a movie which presented charismatic characters like Ned Land, Captain Nemo, and the loyal first mate on the Nautilus, this movie needed a worthy adversary who represented the intellectual counterpart of the colorful master harpooner!

In short, Paul Lukas is the "weakest link" in the chain of characters who make the core group at the fore-front of this great story.

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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Pow wrote:
More Bill Warren.

Kirk Douglas, a good actor, is hammy in an unfortunate role. In the original book, Ned Land is almost an enigmatic a character as Nemo.

Disagree. Ned was a lusty seaman who was fond of alcohol, fist fights, and floozies. But he bonded with Peter Lorre, regarding him as a shipmate with whom he could trade jokes and swap punches! Very Happy

You make some good points about Kirk Douglas' performance. Regarding Bill Warren's description of the character as a "vulgar boor," I'd say maybe he wasn't vulgar enough! At times Douglas seemed to be playing Ned Land like an overgrown mischievous boy.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotpens wrote:
At times Douglas seemed to be playing Ned Land like an overgrown mischievous boy.

You're absolutely right! As you said, he was an overgrown boy, which means he had mercurial moods. Ned was either angry about being held aboard the Nautilus, or he was happy and playful — mostly the latter.

For example, in his very first scene we see Ned strolling down the street with a floozy on each arm, and he stops to heckle the old sailor who was warning the crowd about the "sea monster".

On board the navel vessel he entertains the crowd with his humorous song, loving all the attention.

At dinner aboard the Nautilus he needles Nemo when the Captain says, "I advise you not to try to escape. Do you understand your position?"

Ned laughs and replies, "Well, I don't know, Captain. A prison has a right to escape, hasn't he? And a guest don't need to. So I guess that makes us a little bit of both!"
Laughing


20,000 Leagues Under The Sea (1954) The Dinner Party


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Morbius
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got an email from photobucket, had to pay or they were going to delete the account. So I paid and came across an old corel draw (or something). I did this when I knew what I was doing.


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Pow
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smoke and Mirrors by Mark Wolf, Special Visual Effects B.C. (Before Computers)

While the end result (the scene of the giant squid attack) did become the dramatic highlight of the movie, Disney was savvy enough to hedge his bets by bringing in Willis O'Brien for several days to consult about a possible stop-motion approach if the second unit attempt failed.

Sidebar: Wow, I never had read this piece of information before about this classic Disney SF film.
I have always wondered what this scene would have looked like had stop-motion animation had been employed for the giant squid.

I would imagine that probably a combination of the massive mechanical squid constructed and animation would have worked best.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pow wrote:
Sidebar: Wow, I never had read this piece of information before about this classic Disney SF film.
I have always wondered what this scene would have looked like had stop-motion animation had been employed for the giant squid.

I would imagine that probably a combination of the massive mechanical squid constructed and animation would have worked best.

I respectfully disagree.

I can't think of very few examples of a scene in which a stop motion figure was inter-cut with a full-sized version (even if it's just foot or a hand) when it didn't spoil the effect of the stop motion on the audience.

King Kong is the exception; the hand which held Fay Ray and the foot that stomped the natives were good. But the full sized head absolutely did not. Sad

Even Talos' full-sized foot didn't really look like it belonged to the animated model while Jason was opening the "heel cork".

And expecting the fluid movements of animated tentacles to mesh with big rubber tentacles on wires would, I believe, not have been very unconvincing.

The fact the rain storm added so much to the battle should be considered, too. Creating an animated squid that appeared to be in the rain with the men just would not be possible.
Sad
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would have to agree with you Bud.

It brings us back to the identification of Stop Motion as an "art" that sets out to mimic reality while still retaining the "artistic style" of the artist.

CGI on the other hand can combine live action mechanical effects with computer generated effects. A prime case in point is the Tyranosaurus sequence in JURRASIC PARK. The two techniques blended flawlessly.

Harryhausens' stop motion effects always carried elements of the artistic style of the creator. While they blended very well (and were the "state of the art" at the time!) they required the viewer to accept them as reality. They were always included as a fantasy so the suspension of belief was readily achieved.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

We'll never see a squid as large as the one in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (or an octopus as large as the one in It Came from Beneath the Sea) , but scientist can't agree on just how "giant" the Giant Squid can be.

Here's an interesting article on the subject.


School-Bus-Size Giant Squid May Be Lurking Deep in the Sea




~ On Oct. 1, 2013, a 30-foot-long giant squid washed ashore in the Spanish community of Cantabria.

Steeped in mystery, the elusive, deep-sea-dwelling giant squid, with eyes the size of basketballs, may be larger than it has gotten credit for. In fact, the monster cephalopod may grow to be longer than a school bus, researchers say.

Specimens recognizable as giant squid (Architeuthis dux) have been found washed up onshore since at least 1639. However, these sea monsters — which some people say inspired the legend of the giant kraken, though not all scientists agree — are so elusive that they were largely thought to be mythical until they were first photographed alive in their natural environment in 2004.

Ever since giant squid were discovered, there has been considerable speculation as to how large they can get. In a previous analysis of more than 130 specimens, scientists said that none exceeded 42 feet (13 meters) in length. Suggesting that giant squid could grow larger was "a disservice to science," they said.

Still, prior studies estimated that hundreds of thousands of giant squid may live in the ocean, which would suggest that there are plenty of chances for giant squid to grow larger than previously suggested, said Charles Paxton, a fisheries ecologist and statistician at the University of St Andrews in Scotland.

Now, a statistical analysis from Paxton suggests that giant squid may plausibly reach 65 feet (20 m) in total length. This new study extrapolated the maximum sizes this species might reach by both examining a variety of categories of data and examining as much data taken directly from specimens of the creature as was available.

"I've been interested in the last few years about investigating the hard science behind sea monsters," Paxton said.

The data Paxton analyzed included 164 measures of mantle (body) length; 39 measures of standard length, which included the lengths of their bodies as well as the lengths of the longest of their arms; and 47 measures of total length, which included the lengths of their bodies as well as the lengths of the tentacles. (Tentacles are squid limbs that often end in teeth and hooks, and are usually significantly longer than squid arms.)

Paxton also examined 46 instances where beak, or mouth, size was measured along with mantle length. He found that beak size could help predict mantle length, confirming previous studies.

All in all, Paxton found that it was statistically plausible that giant squid could have mantle lengths of about 10 feet (3 m) and total lengths of 65 feet, "and that's a conservative analysis," he said.

"I am extrapolating here, and extrapolation can sometimes be a bit sketchy," Paxton said. "But I think these are fairly safe extrapolations. I genuinely think that giant-squid size has been underestimated."

Paxton noted that there are claims that giant squid can grow to be 100 feet (30 m) long. "I don't think giant squid can get that big, but while a measurement of a giant squid total length of 19 meters [62 feet] can be questioned, I'd say it certainly wasn't impossible," Paxton said.

Some scientists have suggested that squid parts may stretch over time, leading to overestimates of the animal's size.

To help resolve that question, "there are people in New Zealand and Spain who fairly regularly collect specimens of giant squid, and I'd like them to see just how stretchy they are postmortem," Paxton said.

Another study, reported in 2015 in the journal PeerJ, suggested that it's human nature to exaggerate the sizes of the ocean's giants. The study found that people overestimate measurements for whales, sharks and squid.

As to why giant squid might grow as large as they do, "perhaps it makes them less likely to be eaten by sperm whales," Paxton said. "It'd be interesting to find out if they do ever reach a size where they cannot ever be eaten by sperm whales."



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Pow
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting, Bud, terrific photo!

And now science tells us that the squid and octopus are far more intelligent than originally believed.

Anyone remember that 1996 TV-miniseries, "The Beast," from years ago that was based on Peter Benchley's book about a deadly giant squid?
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Morbius
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the Jet Nautilus I made. I sent to Al in Florida, I think I sold it for $600. Now it would probably be worth much more since it is very rare.

________________________ JET NAUTILUS


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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2022 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

Wow, this model is tee-riffic! Very Happy

And the crystal clear water makes a perfect background for the Nautilus as it cruises along on the surface and then submerges briefly, over and over again.

That's for sharing this wonderful video. Here's an alternative musical selection we can play in a separate window while watching the video with the audio muted.


___________Main Title (Captain Nemo's Theme)


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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever deviations there were from Vernes' version of the classic story,m the Disney "magic" made the book into a story that would appeal to all ages and those not familiar to the original.

Just like JOURNEY TO THE CENTER OF THE EARTH in the 50's inspired me to read the original Jules Verne stories (not in the original French ..unfortunately... but at least English translations!) it caused me to widen my appreciation of the origins of Sci-Fi! From Verne to Heinlien, Clarke, Asimov and so many others.

This film hit the mark on so many levels. Great story . . . marvelous designs by Groff and others, and wonderful performances . . . of which Kirk Douglas's stood out! All made this a MAJOR landmark in 50's sci-fi, as significant as FORBIDDEN PLANET!

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