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Total Recall (1990)
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Krel
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

]It's kind of worse than that Bud. Remember the scene with the head of Rekall? At the end of the movie Quaid is crazy, stuck in the world of the implanted vacation.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

The fact that there are numerous scenes in the movie which show characters other than Quaid in situations where he was not present would seem to refute the idea that it was all just a dream.

If Quaid is supposed to be dreaming this fantasy/adventure which will result in a memory of his own experiences, would he dream about things that are happening in other places? How could he "remember" all those events for which he was not present?

I realize that the Rekall machine can implant anything it's programmed to, so obviously my statement proves nothing.

I'm just saying that the movie isn't structured as one long first-person experience, composed of events Quaid supposedly lived through.

I Googled the question and found this quote from Paul Verhoeven on a site called Mandatory.
___________________________________

“Total Recall doesn’t say whether it’s reality or it is a dream, you know? It’s really saying there’s this reality and there’s that reality, and both exist at the same time,” Paul Verhoeven explained in a Canadian hotel room, the day after the film screened at TIFF. “Because you look at Total Recall there is never a preference, let’s say, taken by me or the scriptwriter, to say this is really what he dreams about and this is the truth.”

“I wanted it to be that way,” Verhoeven clarifies. “Because I felt that it was — if you want to use a very big word — post-modern. I felt that basically I should not say ‘This is true, and this not true.’ I wanted — and we worked with Gary Goldman on that, not the original writers — [and we] worked very hard to make both consistent, and that both would be true. And I think we succeeded very well. So I think of course there is no solution. Hey, it’s both true. So I thought, two realities; that it was innovative in movie language at least, to a certain degree, that there would be two realities and there is no choice.”

___________________________________

Okay, I can accept that. I'd be very disappointed if Paul Verhoeven made an exciting movie and then just said, "Of course it's outlandish and impossible! It was just a dream."

That's sloppy story telling, something I object to strongly.

What he did do was make a story so wild and fun that you had to forgive the "outlandish and impossible" moments by saying to yourself, "Oh well, that's Hollywood for ya."

But Verhoeven went one better; he gave us two options, just for fun. Either it was a wild-and-crazy "real event" in the tradition of many action-adventure movies . . . or it was a wild-and-crazy dream, and we're told by the doctor whom Quaid shot that if he didn't escape the dream, he'd end up being lobotomized to break the dream cycle.

That would seem to be final answer to this interesting debate.

However, it actually isn't! Shocked

Even some Hollywood filmmakers prefer the idea that it was real! Here's a fascinating IMDB trivia item.
___________________________________

The Tom Cruise science fiction flick Minority Report (2002) which was based on the Philip K. Dick short story was originally going to be the sequel to Total Recall (1990) which Arnold Schwarzenegger would return as Quaid.

Total Recall 2: The Minority Report would take place after the events of Total Recall (which would reveal that it wasn't a dream), and the film would see Quaid now working for an elite law enforcement agency, in which mutants from Mars use their physic abilities to predict crimes before the crimes are committed. Quaid is forced to go on the run when the mutants predict that he is going to commit a murder in 48 hours. He sets out to stop the murder from happening and prove his innocence.

Due to 5 years in development hell, Total Recall 2: The Minority Report was abandoned and became Minority Report (2002) and Total Recall (1990) was remade in 2012 with Colin Farrell as Quaid.
___________________________________

So, to summarize: Paul Verhoeven states that the movie is structure to make either interpretation (real-or-dream) equally supportable (or equally refutable, depending on your preference Very Happy). But the plan to make a sequel, Total Recall 2: The Minority Report, would spoil the fun of speculating by establishing that it was an real.

Maybe the idea of turning Quaid into a Precog Policemen would have worked, but it's hard for me visualize it. Maybe I'll have a dream tonight and it will all make sense.

I just hope I'll be able to wake up! Shocked

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

_______________________________

I just thought of some very interesting ideas and decided to make a new post about them instead of adding them to the one above, which is already pretty long. Rolling Eyes

My strongest reasons for rejecting the "dream" interpretation are founded on the extremely clever plot elements described below. Just for the sake of argument, let's start with the assumption that's it's not a dream.

Therefore . . .

(a) Quaid is actually a bad guy whose boss (Cohaagen) used implanted memories to hide his true identity (even from Quaid) and send him on an undercover mission to Earth.

(b) Quaid had dreams about both Mars and Melina even before he goes to Rekall. Why would he do that if he was NOT an undercover secret agent with an implanted identity, and whose subconscious memories of Mars were leaking through to his conscious mind?

(c) Quaid's choice to get a "secret agent" fantasy is actually the result of his subconscious knowledge that he IS a secret agent! I love the irony; he was an evil secret agent with an unconscious wish NOT to be a bad guy . . . and it came true! Very Happy

(d) His choice of the girl he'll meet on Mars is also based on subconscious knowledge, because he already knows her. When he gets to Mars, she tells him they already know each other.

But if this was just a wish-fulfillment spy fantasy, would the female character he's supposed to meet and seduce tell him they already knew each other and she hates him because he's so bad? Confused)

(e) The Rekall program disrupted his already-programmed brain, so it didn't work and Quaid reverted to his true identity in a few ways — such as the martial arts techniques he used to kill several men who attacked him on Earth. Quaid was amazed he was able to do that. If he's suppose to be enjoying spy fantasy, he should be aware that he knows martial arts.

(d) If Quaid really is an evil undercover secret agent with a gorgeous (bogus) wife whose job is to keep an eye on him for Cohaagen, then we know that her sudden change into a Stone cold killer (pun intended) was her reaction to his sudden erratic behavior. At the end of the fight, while Arnold has her in choke hold, she says —

"I'm not your wife! I swear to God, I never saw you before six weeks ago! Our marriage is just a memory implant!"

Then she looks at Quaid and says, "Sorry, Quaid. Your whole life is just a dream."

Bingo! Very Happy

(Click on this lovely image and watch the scene on YouTube.)



In that scene she verifies conclusively that his "Douglas Quaid" identity as her fake husband and his pointless life as a construction worker is an identity created by implanted memories so he could lead Cohaagen to the leader of the Martian rebellion.

Please note that if all that is just a dream, then he really IS married to a luscious and devoted blond wife . . . who suddenly tries to kill him in his dream! Damn, that makes no sense at all. And if a man is going to dream about Sharon Stone, fighting with her would not be his first choice. Rolling Eyes

(e) Finally (and this is the best one) Quaid's implanted "good guy" personae, which was done to him on Cohaagen's orders, actually caused Quaid to re-evaluate his morals and his character, and he ends up not wanting to change back when the time came to do so!

That is definitely the most interesting aspect of Arnold's character. And it also brings up a very interesting question, guys.

Why would a Rekall program that's supposed to make a man imagine himself as a heroic secret agent who saves the colonists on Mars, include the disturbing revelation that his "hero" character is actually a henchman for the villain, a man who ends up betraying the very cause he's supposed to be fighting for!?

Jeez, what kind of sucky "vacation" is that? Shocked

That would be like paying for a deluxe vacation on a beautiful cruise ship . . . and then finding out that part of your fun-filled vacation package is for the ship to hit a reef and sink! Rolling Eyes

Frankly I think this single illogical aspect of the story — if it's all supposed to be an enjoyable fantasy adventure which goes wrong — is the most compelling reason to believe that it was NOT a dream!

Sure, someone could say, "Yes, but Quaid's deranged mind distorted the spy fantasy, causing the dream to go horribly wrong."

Yeah, right . . . but it still seems unlikely that the mind of "Quaid the common construction worker" would take the implanted Rekall memory of an experience he's supposed to have already had and twist it up so completely that he ends up thinking HE is really a villain who was converted into a "bogus good guy", and now doesn't want to go back to being a villain!

In short, what poor Douglas Quaid got, compared to what the salesman told him he'd get, are two very different things! Remember, this isn't a "virtual reality experience" he lives through — it's a complete "implanted memory" of an event that's supposed to have a pre-programmed beginning, middle, and end.

Yes, I know — the Rekall program went wrong and caused Quaid to have a "psychotic break", so the dream turned into a nightmare, and that explains the totally unpleasant aspects of the "dream vacation" he wanted.

But if that's true, guys, all those interesting story elements I described above weren't part of the story at all, and my enjoyment of this clever villain-turned-hero story is spoiled. Sad

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Nov 16, 2022 1:51 pm; edited 4 times in total
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The Spike
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Verhoeven bonkers adaptation of a P. K. Dick story.

Doug Quaid keeps getting recurring dreams about a visit to Mars. In spite of his friends warnings, he decides to have a memory implanted Mars holiday. But during the implantation he remembers being a secret agent who is fighting evil Mars boss Vilos Cohaagen. Things are about to go very intergalactic bonkers indeed.

Total Recall finds director Paul Verhoeven on particularly OTT form, with the often maligned director cranking up the action and violence to the max. So then, who better to play out the carnage than the big Austrian oak himself, Arnold Schwarzenegger? It was actually Schwarzenegger who brought Verhoeven into the picture. The idea for the film had been kicking around for years, a number of director's came and went, David Cronenberg famously worked on a screenplay for a year only to have it jettisoned for being too close to the P. K. Dick short story "We Can Remember It For You Wholesale". The makers wanted a high energy sci-fi blockbuster, a star vehicle for Schwarzenegger, and Verhoeven was only too happy to oblige.

Total Recall is a fascinating concept as we find ourselves wondering what in fact is reality? Quaid himself is never quite sure as the film takes a delicious twist at the midpoint to further compound the confusion, but in true Verhoeven style, it all comes crashing together in a giant ball of bangs, crashes and explosions. It should be noted that the film is far removed from the cerebral essence of Dick's story, and really when one saw that Schwarzenegger was to star in a Verhoeven directed adaptation, one really should be prepared for the high octane brain dumb down that Total Recall is. Something which was beyond some highbrow critics who are still baffled by the gargantuan financial success of the film (it made over $260 million worldwide).

Fleshing out the cast are a stoic reliable bunch. Rachael Ticotin, Ronny Cox, Sharon Stone & Michael Ironside deliver the expected tongue in cheek professionalism. While the effects prove to be a mixture of the poor and the decent - though it's nice to see the often lost art of model work being of a pretty high standard. All of which leaves me personally with a film that I find to be a hugely enjoyable piece of uber violent popcorn fodder. 8/10

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Here's more evidence which will put the question of dream-or-reality to rest once and for all.

One rather weak argument used by the pro-dream fans is that a technician at Rekall makes a casual remark concerning the fact that Quaid requested a "fantasy Mars" with a blue sky. And since the movie ends with a blue sky on Mars, the pro-dream fans insist that means Quaid is dreaming.

Sorry, but they've got it backwards.

Remember, Hauser/Quaid and Coohagen know about the alien machine, and they don't want it activated because it will create air on Mars and destroy Coohagen's monopoly on the production of valuable turbinium ore.

If Quaid is subconsciously turning against Coohagen despite the memory implant for his false identify, then Quaid wants to help the Martian colonist by activating the machine — which would give Mars a blue sky! Very Happy

And that's what Quaid eventually succeeds in doing! So, Quaid's request for his fantasy Mars to have a blue sky is his subconscious yearning to make that come true by defying Cohaagen and activating the alien machine.

In other words, the "blue sky on Mars" request is actually evidence that the story is real, not a dream! Mars didn't end up with a blue sky at the end because Quaid requested it be that way in the dream — he requested it for the dream because he subconsciously knew he could go to Mars and make it a reality! Cool

Bear in mind that the movie the starts with Quaid's nightmare about him and Melina walking on Mars in spacesuits, and Quaid breaks his face plate when he falls down. Quaid subconsciously wants to make Mars a better place to live for Melina and the Martian colonists.


_____________ Total Recall Arnold's Nightmare


__________


After writing up all those other reasons yesterday, I watched the movie and discovered that one key scene at Rekall has the strongest piece of evidence for the story not being a dream.

In the YouTube clip below we hear the technicians talking about what caused Quaid to go nuts and try to kill them all right after they first began the memory implant procedure by giving him an injection prior to the actual implant.


_____________________ Total Recall (1990)


__________


That's an import point, guys. The scene makes it clear that the injection was just a preliminary step prior to the implant procedure. Dr. Lull tells him to give her honest answers to her questions about his personal preferences so she can "fine tune the program." Quaid begins to act a bit drowsy, as if the injection was a mild truth serum to make sure Quaid was being truthful about things like the kind of women he preferred, etc.

In fact, he gets so drowsy after several question that he actually closes his eyes. Dr. Lull then tells the technician that "41-A" is the best choice for the kind of woman Quaid described. And for just a moment we see Melina appear on the monitor. Moments later we see Quaid gazing sleepy-eyed at the monitor as Melina's image goes out of focus, and then Quaid is shown falling asleep.

Does this prove that Melina is just a dream girl because Dr. Lull selected that physical appearance for the woman who would be portrayed in Quaid's implanted memory?

Well, it would be an unbelievable coincidence if the fantasy woman in Rekall's database was a dead ringer for a real woman on Mars . . . but we also have to explain the fact that Quaid had dreamed about Melina on Mars so often in the last few weeks that in his early scene with Sharon Stone she says it had become an obsession with him.

So, if Quaid only meets Melina on Mars because she's part of his implanted memory . . . why was he able to dream about the same woman for weeks before he went to Rekall?

I submit that the image of Melina on the monitor for those few moments while Quaid was in a drugged state before his vision blurred and he fall asleep was actually his own memory of his Martain "dream girl" — not the actual computer generated Rekall girl that Dr. Lull chose, based on Quaids general description of Melina!

This is another case of the pro-dream fans getting things backwards. Instead of Quaid seeing the CGI Rekall girl on the monitor and then meeting her in his "dream", he actually fell in love with her on Mars when he was Hauser, and then dreamed about her on Earth after he became the Quaid.

As he lays there in his drugged state prior to having the "spy fantasy" implanted, he imagines the CGI girl on the monitor to be Melina, an image that goes in out of focus before he loose consciousness.

However, the best evidence of all is this.

Moments later the doctor and the technician call the salesman on the intercom and tell him they're having a serious problem.

He rushes into the room and starts struggling with the maniacal Quaid after he's suddenly gone from being unconscious to completely enraged. Quaid tries to choke the salesman to death, but the technician finally shoots him up with multiple doses of tranquilizers, causing him to pass out.

Then Dr. Lull tells Bob McClane (the salesman) something which few of the fans involved in this debate seem to have noticed.

Here's the dialog, starting at the 1:30 mark in the video below.
___________________________________

Bob McClane: [Speaking to Dr. Lull while they all struggle with Quaid.] You can't do a simple goddam double implant?

Dr. Lull: It's not my fault! He's got a memory cap.

Bob McClane: Mr. Quaid! Try to came down!

Quaid: My name is NOT Quaid!

[The technician shoots Quaid with the hypo about nine times until he passes out.]

Dr. Lull speaks urgently to Bob McClane: Listen to me, he's been going on and on about Mars. He's really been there!

Bob McClane: Use your head, you dumb bitch! He's just acting out the secret agent portion of his Ego Trip.

Dr. Lull: I'm afraid that's not possible.

Bob McClane: Why not?

Dr. Lull: Because we haven't implanted it yet! I've been trying to tell you — someone has erased his memory!

Andrew (the technician): Wait . . . Excuse me? Someone? We're talking about the f*cking Agency!

Dr. Lull as she slaps Andrew.: Shut up!
___________________________________

This scene suggests that the Rekall personnel are terrified by the possibility that they've gotten involved in the affairs of a powerful government branch which will object to their unwitting interference.

And the suggestion that their Ego Trip implant (which is intended to be an enjoyable experience for their customers) might combine with the limited intelligence of a common working man like Douglas Quaid and create the elaborate plot of this movie seems far less likely than the idea that Hauser/Quaid is working for the powerful political machine headed by Cohaagen on Mars!

After all, we see news broadcasts in several early scenes which establish that Cohaagen is actually the ruthless leader of a cruel dictatorship on Mars. So, the true villain of this story is certainly real, not just the creation of Quaid's "dream". Shocked

Therefore, ladies and gentlemen, this answers the question conclusively. Cohaagen erased Quaid's memory and sent him to Earth with false memories implanted.

Here's what the Wikipedia summary says about that.
___________________________________

The video is of Quaid himself, who identifies himself as Hauser and explains that he used to work for Cohaagen, but switched sides after learning about an alien artifact and underwent the memory wipe to protect himself.
___________________________________

However, Quaid later learns that the video he made as Hauser tells several lies, because Hauser actually volunteered for both the memory wipe and his false identity so he could infiltrate the resistance and help Cohaagen find the leader (Kuato).

Here's an interesting twist in the debate.

I read online today that fans who believe it's all a dream claim that the moment Quaid is tranquilized, he's "dreaming" the remarks made by Dr. Lull about him not yet receiving the implant, and that his memory had previously been erased.

I reject that idea as illogical in view of the fact that before Quaid was tranquilized — while he was still violently struggling — Dr. Lull tells Bob McClane that the reason Quaid was having the violent reaction to the first step in the procedure was because he "has a memory cap" (which might be a form of protection for his implanted memories as Quaid).

Furthermore, since Quaid was given approximately nine doses of tranquilizer in rapid succession to put him out, it isn't reasonable to assume that his heavily drugged brain (even if he's dreaming he's unconscious) would start creating the illusion that the people around him were saying the things we hear.

After Quaid is unconscious, Dr. Lull just reiterates her claim that the procedure went wrong because Quaid's memory had been erased prior to his arrival at Rekall, and that she had NOT yet implanted the "secret agent" fantasy.

So, claiming that Quaid dreamed the statements after he was unconscious ignores the fact that some of the statements were made before he was knocked out, and afterwards he was so heavily drugged he could not have been "dreaming" anything at all!

In short, it's all real. No question about it. And I'm delighted!
Cool

________ Total Recall (1990) You blew my cover!


__________

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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Pow
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So according to Verhoeven, gorgeous Sharon is a real life Jekyll/Hyde personality!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Well frankly, that sucks. Shocked

Writing classes tell the students that ending a story with " . . . but it was all just a dream," is the Kiss of Death. The reader feels totally cheated, because nothing was real. The character's experiences were just a nightmare caused by the spicy Italian food he had for diner. Rolling Eyes

What a gip! Sad

Imagine Hitchcock making a suspenseful movie in which Jimmy Steward is the victim of a conspiracy, and all the people around him try to convince him he didn't really witness a violent murder, he's just insane.

Then the movie ends with Steward finding out . . . he's just insane. (I'd demand a refund at the box office.)

Let me put it another way.

Arnold is supposed to be this evil guy who volunteered to have his memories changed so he could go undercover as a dumb-ass construction worker and eventually help the other villains expose the rebel leader on Mars.

Great concept! We were shocked when Arnold discovered that he was part of the conspiracy, and he was a bad guy!

But when his "adjusted memories" cause him to act like a good guy instead of a villain, he discovers that being a good guy was more rewarding than being the asshole he really was. He earns the respect and the love of the brave heroine, and he changes himself into a true hero!

What a great story, right? I mean, this is the heart and soul of this great movie. Arnold gets to see what he COULD be, so reinvents himself to become an amazing hero!

Ummm . . . wait. No. That's NOT the real story. Sorry folks, but here's the truth.

Arnold is just a dumb-ass construction worker whose life is so vapid and empty he lets a machine give him false memories of doing brave and noble deeds.

Ah-ha . . . okay . . . so we all just spent two hours watching a witless schmuck pretending to be a hero, after which he wakes up and goes home to his dull and useless life.

Seriously . . . I'm suppose to LIKE that version? Nope, sorry, it totally sucks.

Just for fun, let's re-imagine a few classic heroes in this same manner and see how appealing they would be.

~ Young farm boy Luke Skywalker goes to bed one night and dreams that a beautiful princess sends him a message from space, asking him to help her save the galaxy! (Next morning he wakes up and has breakfast with his aunt and uncle.)

~ Little Jimmy Kirk reads too many comic books and dreams he's the handsome captain of a starship in the distant future. (Next morning he wakes up, goes to school, gets beat up by the local bullies.)

~ Teenage Clark Kent has a dream about being a handsome and powerful visitor from another planet who flies around in a colorful costume and battles evil villains. (Next morning he wakes up and feeds the chickens before having breakfast with Ma and Pa Kent.)

See my point, folks? If a story is just a dream, it simply ain't worth bothering with. Rolling Eyes

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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Krel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read the story the movie is based on, and it is a shaggy dog story, very entertaining. I read the novelization of the film when it came out, but the only thing I remember is that only Quade could activate the machine. When he got to the activation switch, the depression was an exact duplicate of his hand.

I don't remember if the novel said if the events were an implant or not.

Are the events in the movie an implant or not? I really don't care, I just like the movie.

David.
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