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Jason and the Argonauts (1963)
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
CGI certainly produces the peak of reality while Ray's stopmotion reproduces art in all its expression.

Both have value in telling the story to be told....BUT Ray's work remains memorable while the CGI just flashes by.

I may have misunderstood your meaning, but it seems to indicate a fundamental difference in our understanding of CGI.

Here's what I mean.

In the early days of CGI when it was only capable of creating a very stylized version of what it portrayed, I enjoyed this new art form very much in shows like Reboot.






Toy Story and all the other Pixar productions still make brilliant use of that stylized art form. The CGI is used as a new kind of pen-and-ink, an advanced form of brush-and-paint. Those fine movies are cartoons in the grand tradition of Snow White and The Little Mermaid.

One of the things I was impressed by when I saw The Incredibles 1 and 2 was the beautiful futuristic designs.

I love the look of Mr. Incredible's car, Elastigirl's motorcycle, the new house they lived in, the mag-lift train, and that amazing hydrofoil with its Seaview windows that rise up out of the water when it hits top speed! Cool








Today CGI is capable of creating absolutely realistic images. When that's case, the results might not look like "art", but it actually is. For example —





— this photograph of a beautiful 1960 Chevy Impala . . . is NOT a photograph. It's a fine example of "photo realistic art", a special art form that strives to look as much like a photo as possible.

Gord, all I'm saying is that CGI can be "stylized" or it can be "photo realistic", but either way I feel that it's done by people who qualify as artists, because they have to deal with all the elements an artists does: light sources, textures, colors, composition, perspective, etc.

Think of it this way. In Mary Poppins we see stunning matte paintings of the London skyline which were rendered by Peter Ellenshaw. Such matte paintings were once common in movies, and I love 'em!



~ Click on the image to see a 1,200 pixel version.




In some of the classic movies these matte paintings comprise the upper half of a shot (such as the parts of a large set that needed an elaborate ceiling), and they're so realistic we can't tell where the set ends and the painting begins!

In those cases, the artist wasn't trying to dazzle use with his unique style, he was trying to imitate reality as closely as possible.

Today such images are done with CGI, and they look so convincing we don't even know they aren't real. The fact that we're fooled by the amazing realism is proof that talented artists have done their jobs well — just like the matte artists who convinced us that the upper half of the shot is as real as the lower half.

CGI is just another way to create artwork. And since it requires a high degree of artistic talent to be used effectively, I consider the results to be artwork.

Harryhausen's work is analogous to the kind of CGI which is deliberately stylized, not deliberately realistic. If you're a fan of stop motion you accept (and even enjoy) the non-realistic way the animation portrays the motion of the models.

It's true that Ray's work is pure art and extremely memorable, because it never tries to be realistic. Likewise, CGI can be just as "unrealistic" the way it is in the Pixar movies.

However, regardless of whether the artists is trying to produce results that are realistic or stylized, it's still artwork. For that reason I would respectfully disagree with this statement.


Gord Green wrote:
I think you have to differentiate Ray's work from CGI as the difference between ART and workmenship.

I suspect you didn't mean that ALL computer generated images are merely the product of "workmanship". And I would certainly agree that not all CGI demonstrates the same level of artistic excellence that movies like the Pixar films do.

But the difference between artist efforts and "workmanship" might be defined this way: Even an unskilled artist who paints a really bad wall mural is still an artist. On the other hand, even the most skilled house painter . . . is a workman. Very Happy

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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
— this photograph of a beautiful 1958 Chevy Impala . . . is NOT a photograph.

It's a 1960 Chevy, actually.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thanks. I fixed the error. Very Happy

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a little different from you on the "photo realism" issue. It certainly can be considered "art"....as can mechanical drawings and blueprints be considered "art".

It requires talent and training and dedication to the medium and can show great individualism (Like the works of Probert and Cobb and Giger!). But on the whole the results are more realistic than stylelized.

Take your own works as an example. Your portraits, paintings and drawings are wonderful but couldn't be confused with a photograph. They show your "artistic" style and that's what makes them unique and enjoyable to the viewer. They surpass mere workmanship and reflect your individual style.

That's what makes the works of Ray Harryhausen so special. They transcend realism and reflect "art"

Movies like THE INCREDIBLES are marvelous and on the whole reflect the artists' style. I'm also in agreement that CGI in action movies like THE AVENGERS et. al . is necessary to portray the impossible! They are beautifully expressed and vital to the storytelling but sometimes they are overpowering (Like in THE TRANSFORMERS movies!).

Both techniques have value and can be effective, but we can't forget about the charm and uniqueness of the Masters of Stopmotion.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

We've definitely reached a meeting of the minds, old friend. Very Happy

As you stated, I like art that isn't an attempt to make a "painted photograph" — in other words, the kind where you can see blogs of paint and visible brush strokes, and some of the colors are chosen from the artist's imagination, not just from the subject.

A prime example of this is Frank Frazetta's self portrait, which goes much further to be "stylized" than most of his illustrations.



__________


In defense of photo realistic artwork, most of them deliberately pick subjects that challenge to the artist to capture the intricate interplay of light, shadow, and reflection, thus making a painting that seems even better a photograph.

It's a subtle kind of "stylization", in that you'd never see (for example) a red Jaguar like the one shown in these two by photo-realist Cheryl Kelley. The beautiful profusion and complexity of all those reflections actually surpass reality.

The website these images came from said the paintings were done in oil on aluminum panel and they measure 22" X 30"








The viewer finds himself mesmerized as he studies it minutely for the same reason our eyes pour over every inch of Frazetta's self portrait, marveling at the hundreds of small decisions the artist made to place every color and brushstroke in just the right place!

You mentioned my artwork, so I made this close-up cropped section of my father's portrait to demonstrate the stylization you so kindly complimented me on. Cool

Good Gawd A'migthy, look at all those zillions of little brush strokes! I'm lucky I didn't go blind! Shocked






Click on the image to see the whole portrait so can count the brush strokes to see if there's really zillions or if I was just lying. Wink
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The Spike
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Rise up, you dead, slain of the hydra. Rise from your graves Reply with quote

Never ever gets old, a magical movie with a big mythical heart.

To regain his rightful place as the King of Thessaly, Jason must traverse deadly seas to the land of Colchis where a Golden Fleece of magical powers is housed. Assembling a crew of the toughest men around, and aided by the Goddess Hera, Jason and his Argonauts set sail unbeknown that perils await at every port.

Directed by Don Chaffrey and featuring some of stop motion genius Ray Harryhausen's best work, Jason And The Argonauts is still entertaining families over 50 years since its original release. For sure it's got a "B" movie heart, and no film in this genre is without a high cheese quota, but it's technically one of the genres best and for daring do shenanigans it has no peers. The gorgeous Meditteranean photography courtesy of Wilkie Cooper (Dynamation 90) goes hand in hand with the boisterously mythical score from Bernard Hermann, while Chaffrey's direction of the human aspects is solid and safe in preparation for Harryhausen's magic to move in and take over.

The cast may not cover themselves in glory, and yes at times some of them are a touch wooden, with only Honor Blackman (Hera) and Nigel Green (Hercules) seemingly able to grasp the sense of fun that is meant to be had. But really it's a minor itch, for when you have a big quest adventure containing harpies, a hydra, a giant bronze statue intent on destroying all, clashing rocks, angry gods and a brilliant Harryhausen skeleton army - well it's all good really isn't it! 9/10

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Pow
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JATA Trivia, Part One } Charles & Ray had hoped to shoot the film in Greece, appropriately enough. However, after scouting Greece for locations they found it quite bleak and gray.

Yugoslavia, near Dubrovnik, was deemed perfect. There was even a standing set of an ancient city at the Yugoslav Studio which had been constructed for another film. However, Yugoslavia wanted too much money for the production to film in their country.

Palinuro, a small village by the sea that was south of Naples, Italy was found to be just right for the production.

One funny incident occurred during filming a scene for the film. Jason's ship, the Argo, was to appear from around a bluff. Instead, the TV series "Sir Francis Drake'' was shooting footage & their vessel, the Golden Hind, ended up coming around the bluff instead.

"Get that ship out of here! You're in the wrong century," hollered producer Charles Schneer.

The Argo's outer shell was mounted over the framework of a fishing barge and powered by 3 Mercedes~Benz engines.
It cost $250,000 to construct the Argo.

Palentino Studios in Rome was where the majority of the interior scenes were shot. Shepperton Studios in England was where the main effects were filmed.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

As always, we enjoy (and appreciate) the efforts you make to bring these interesting facts to All Sci-Fi's members.

Keep 'em comin', sir! Cool

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Pow
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JATA Trivia, Part 2 } The bronze statue of Talos does appear in the Jason story but it was only 7-8 in height.

Ray made his version of Talos 100-feet tall. It was based upon the Colossus of Rhodes which had been one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.

Side Note} Ray explored the possibility of doing a Sinbad film that would have taken the intrepid sailor and his crew to all 7 of the ancient wonders of the world.

I'd have loved to have seen that one. To my knowledge no movie has ever featured the 7 wonders of the world in one film.

The stop~motion model Ray animated of Talos was 12 inches high.

The scene with the Harpies was shot at the real location at the temples of Paestum.
Ray would use this location again in his final film "Clash Of The Titans'' for the exterior shots of the Medusa's lair.

The model for the deadly Hydra (one of my favorite Harryhausen creatures) was 3-feet in length.

The 7 skeletons used in the climax of the film were 8-10 inches tall. And yes, one of them was the very same skeleton that battled Sinbad in "The 7th Voyage Of Sinbad." It took Ray 4-months to complete the animation for the battle.

If you look closely you can see that the shields used by the skeletons have images of the Ymir from "20,000,000 Miles To Earth," and the octopus from "It Came From Beneath The Sea."

The battle scene with Jason & his men against the skeletons is one of Ray's favorites. However, he said that the work required for animating it was so intense & long that he'd never want to tackle something like that again.

Note } The skeleton battle is considered the pinnacle of Ray's work. Whenever a salute is done for Ray it always features the skeleton battle front and center as a testimony to his career.

JATA cost 3,000,000 to make which was Charles and Ray's most lavish and expensive picture to date.
Ray considered JATA to be his finest film. Critics and fans would agree with Ray on that score.


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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

IMDB has several interesting trivia items for this production. Very Happy
________________________________

~ It took Ray Harryhausen four months to produce the skeleton scene, which runs, at most, three minutes.

Note from me: Impressive. And bear in mind that some of the shots in the scene don't even include animation . . . although there aren't many.

~ While filming footage of the Argo off the coast of Italy, a replica of the Golden Hind sailed into view. Sir Francis Drake (1961) happened to be filming in the same location. Producer Charles H. Schneer shouted, "Get that ship out of here! You're in the wrong century!", dispelling any tensions that arose from both shots being lost.

Note from me: This situation is a little like some of the temporal anomalies that occurred in Bill and Ted Face the Music, when time lines crisscrossed.

~ After Ray Harryhausen received the Gordon E. Sawyer Award recognizing his contributions to the film industry at the Oscars' Science & Technical Ceremony in 1992, Tom Hanks, the host of the event, said, "Some people say Citizen Kane (1941) or Casablanca (1942). I say 'Jason and the Argonauts' is the greatest movie ever made."

Note from me: Actually I've never understood why Citizen Kane seems to impress folks. Confused

~ John Cairney and Nigel Green didn't get along at all during filming. Green accused Cairney of being very effeminate.

The last scene they filmed together was the scene in which Hercules and Hylas enter the treasure chamber, hidden in the plinth of the mighty Talos. The lighting used to give the treasure its sparkling effect was very bright, and the following day, the actors began losing their vision. Both actors became temporarily blind, and were hospitalized in the same room for two weeks with their eyes bandaged.

They found they had a lot in common, and soon became fast friends. They remained good friends until Nigel Green died in the early 1970's. Fortunately their sight returned after their hospital stay.


Note from me: If this item is true, it raises several interesting questions.

* What kind of studio lighting would cause the actors in the shot to become temporarily blind?

* Did it effect any of the crew standing off camera? It it didn't . . . why?

* According to Wikipedia, Hercules and Hylas were gay lovers.

* That isn't consistent with this movie, because Hylas displays no outward gay behavior, and Hercules specifically says that he hopes to find a woman with a "warm heart and full bosom" when the Argo get to Talos' island to find fresh supplies.

~ The skeletons' shields are adorned with designs of other Ray Harryhausen creatures, including an octopus and the head of the Ymir from 20 Million Miles to Earth (1957).

Note from me: Okay, this is not true. It's a nice sentiment, but it's false.

Of the seven skeletons, there are only five with swords and shields. The other two carry spears.






Two of the shields display identical octopuses (one of which is out of frame to the right)! Two have different "scary monster" faces, and one has a Medusa "skull" with snakes.

The "scary monster" on the far right is NOT a reasonable likeness of the Ymir. Sad






~ Ray Harryhausen stated that he wanted to avoid the Italian "muscleman" stereotype present in films at that time when casting Hercules.

Note from me: I think this was a wise choice. Talented actors like Nigel Green have better things to do with their time than spend hours in gyms, building muscles. The producers of this movie chose a charismatic actor to play the son of Zeus . . . not a muscle-bound weight lifter.

And we should bear in mind that Hercule's strength was derived from being half-god — not from eating lots of protein and lifting barbells. Very Happy

~ Although Nancy Kovack is billed second in the opening credits, she does not appear until 66 minutes into the 99-minute film.

Note from me: Frankly, folks, she was worth the wait! Wink







~ The soundtrack was made without a string section. This leaves the brass and percussion to perform the heroic fanfares, and the woodwinds and additional instruments (such as the harp) to dominate in the more subtle and romantic parts.

Note from me: I never really thought of this before, but my lifelong love for the score is indeed based on the heroic fanfares it provides! Very Happy

~ Bernard Herrmann's score liberally utilizes the technique known as "self-borrowing", which involves reusing elements from his previous scores. He reused passages from scores for The Kentuckian (1955), Beneath the 12-Mile Reef (1953), and 5 Fingers (1952), and reworked passages from scores for North by Northwest (1959), The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951), and Vertigo (1958).

Note from me: The first time I watched this movie I noticed several of the "borrowed" pieces mentioned above, specifically the "whip fight" from The Kentuckian, the "burning boat" scene in Beneath the 12-Mile Reef.

~ The voice of Nancy Kovack, who played Medea, was dubbed by Eva Haddon, an actress well known on BBC radio.

Note from me: This one surprised me. I've heard Miss Kovak's voice in several other productions, such as the first Matt Helm film, The Silencers. If her voice was dubbed in this movie, it certainly seemed to match her real voice perfectly! Very Happy

~ The voice of Todd Armstrong, who played Jason, was dubbed by British actor Tim Turner.

Note from me: The dubbing in this case was also done so well that I never suspected it! Shocked

~ The live action work had been done a year before in Italy with the actors doing a kind of shadow boxing against imaginary opponents.

Ray Harryhausen then had to animate seven skeletons with each one having five appendages. That meant he had 35 different things to move for each frame of film.

In addition he had to make the skeleton's movements fit in with the actor's movements so that all ten could be seen hacking away at each other with their swords.

Sometimes he only managed to do 13 or 14 frames a day ( movies are shown at 24 frames per second) which was about half a second of film in a day. As a result it took 4-1/2 months to film the animation for the sequence.


Note from me: If this statement doesn't prove that Ray Harryhausen was a unique artist genius, then I don't know what possibly could . . . Shocked

~ This was the only film Todd Armstrong made that was of any significance during his career.

Note from me: I sorry to hear this. I think he was terrific. Very Happy

~ Honor Blackman plays the god Hera, and just one year later she'd be starring as Pussy Galore in Goldfinger (1964).

Note from me: From mythological Greek goddess to real-life sex symbol. That's promotion!

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Today I watched my new Blu-ray of Quo Vadis (1951), a magnificent three-hour story about the clash of Christianity with the Roman Empire. The movie is eye-popping in every way — from the amazing sets to the incredible crowd scenes of the Roman stadium with 30,000+ extras!

I was astounded by the fact that the stadium was obviously a full-size set, not something enhanced by matte shots to make it look larger, not to mention the fact that it was filled with thousands of extras!

The entire movie looks like it was shot in ancient Rome, not a movie filmed in Italy back in 1951 with stunning sets and thousands of extras!

So, why am I posting these comments in the thread for Jason and the Argonauts?

Because Quo Vadis includes many scenes which make references to the Roman gods — which we never see, of course. In that respect, it's similar to other historical dramas about both Rome and Greece.

But these mythological deities are never presented as being benevolent. They're always portrayed as being selfish and vain. They are magical beings who have great powers — but they possess no empathy for mankind. Sad

The one exception to this in cinematic history is Jason and the Argonauts! Very Happy

In that wonderful movie we see the Greek Gods of Olympus presented as kindly beings who care for each other, and they exercise their control over mankind like kindly parents who guide their children's activity in beneficial ways.






I think this aspect of the film is part of what made the movie so enjoyable to kids back in 1963. It was both visually exciting and emotionally reassuring. Cool
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny that you mentioned QUO VADIS , as today I binge-watched QUO VADIS, THE ROBE, and DEMETRIOUS AND THE GLADIATORS.

A lot of people confuse QUO VADIS with THE ROBE as the basic stories are similar.

Who was the better Nero...Peter Ustinov or Jay Robinson?

Who did the better score ...Neuman or Rozsa ? (Oh yeah, Rozsa hands down! Only surpassed by his great BEN HUR score!)!

I think the one point I must really agree with you with is the despair for the real epic films we've enjoyed in the past.
Look at the recent version of BEN HUR...very little music...no vast images of the ancient world...Hell, not even a great chariot race...and to top it all...A HAPPY ENDING WHERE MESSALLA SURVIVES AND BEN AND HIM BECOME FRIENDS AGAIN !



(Sorry for the rant, but it really bugs me how the films from the last few years pale to the classics of the past!)

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
I think the one point I must really agree with you with is the despair for the real epic films we've enjoyed in the past.

(Sorry for the rant, but it really bugs me how the films from the last few years pale to the classics of the past!)

Rant away, good sir! I could not agree more!

I have the three movies you mentioned, along with The Adventures of Robin Hood, The Adventures of Don Juan, The Egyptian, Ben-Hur, The Ten Commandments, Prince Valiant, and Knights of the Round Table!

The TechniColor classics from the 1940s and 1950s are pure artwork, start to finish. The vibrant colors, the gorgeous costumes, the great sets, and the amazing matte paintings are all wonders to behold.

Perhahps our two noble chat room companions have a few of the ones you and I have. Finding good adventure movies for our Wednesday chats is getting hard as I continue to search YouTube for good copies of enjoyable movies.

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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Today I watched my new Blu-ray of Quo Vadis (1951), a magnificent three-hour story about the clash of Christianity with the Roman Empire. The movie is eye-popping in every way — from the amazing sets to the incredible crowd scenes of the Roman stadium with 30,000+ extras!

I was astounded by the fact that the stadium was obviously a full-size set, not something enhanced by matte shots to make it look larger, not to mention the fact that it was filled with thousands of extras!

Thirty thousand extras? Sounds like typical Hollywood hype. If you watch the "man vs. bull" clip on YouTube, you can see that nothing moves in the two upper tiers of bleachers. They're obviously a matte painting or a hanging miniature.

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBz8eyIgxXY

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotpens wrote:
Thirty thousand extras? Sounds like typical Hollywood hype. If you watch the "man vs. bull" clip on YouTube, you can see that nothing moves in the two upper tiers of bleachers. They're obviously a matte painting or a hanging miniature.

You're right, sir! Very Happy

I was watching the crowd in the stadium, too, to see if I saw evidence that they were real folks up there!

My thought was that perhaps the movie had 5.000 extras and 25,000 dummies, all mixed together — with the real people holding one arm behind each dummy next to them, shaking it around from time to time! Very Happy

Maybe that wasn't how they did it, but that would certainly have worked! Laughing

Your theory, however, is far more likely— and much cheaper for the studio.

I actually confirmed your theory with a little online research when I found the image below on the amazing website called Matte Shot — a tribute to Golden Era special fx.






It turns out that the only level of the stadium which was real and had extras in it was the FIRST one! The rest were rendered by master matte artist Peter Ellenshaw! Cool

Well done, Centurion Scotpensius! Caesar will reward you with a golden laurel wreath and a lovely slave girl for your personal pleasure.
Cool
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