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When Worlds Collide (1951)
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
As for the Eden-like nature of Zyra, when I chose that snow-bound image in my alternate version, it occurred to me that there was no way Zyra could have grass and trees growing there so soon! The planet spent millions of years in deep space, colder than a six-pack of Heineken buried under a glacier.

Zyra was hurtling through space in orbit around the rogue star Bellus. It was the star Bellus that destroyed Earth.
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:

As for the Eden-like nature of Zira, when I chose that snow-bound image in my alternate version, it occurred to me that there was no way Zira could have grass and trees growing there so soon! The planet spent millions of years in deep space, colder than a six-pack of Heineken buried under a glacier.

It had only been close enough to the sun to really start warming up in the last few weeks.


The planet Zyra wasn't hurtling through deep space all by its lonesome. It was in orbit around the rogue star Bellus. The Bellus-Zyra system was on a collision course with Earth.

Somehow the Earth's gravity was going to pull Zyra out of its orbit around the runaway star. When Bellus came along nineteen days later and hit the Earth head-on, the unfathomable energy released would be enough to sever any remaining tie between it and Zyra. Zyra would thus be perfectly placed to serve as a new home for the small segment of humanity that was able to escape the apocalypse.

Yes, scientifically it's nonsense. But, as they say, if you buy the premise, you buy the bit.

I understand that in the original novel (which I haven't read), it was two rogue planets, not a planet and its star.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

All that is true, gentlemen. But . . . they said the large region they flew over during the approach before landing looked frozen.








And the landing area is covered in snow deep enough to cushion the impact of that huge ship.







Bear in mind that Bellus was not a G2 star like the sun. It was obviously not large enough and hot enough to keep Zyra warm during its eons-long journey through space, or to create all that lovely greenery we see in the painting.

When we see the actual collision on the ship's view screen, Bellus is presented as being just a few time larger than the Earth. That's not scientifically accurate, of course, because even Jupiter is 30 times larger than Earth.






But the point is that Bellus was much smaller than the sun, and much cooler, because it was red in color and about as bright as a full moon!





Say what you will, but the ship landed on a frozen landscape which (during the approach) stretched all the way to the horizon. But when they opened the door — TA-DAAA! — there was a huge area of green grass, red flowers, pink trees, and a nice warm ocean!

Come on, admit it, after entering the solar system and wander passed the orbits of planets with sub-zero temperatures like Neptune, Uranus, Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars, an arctic landscape is obviously what Zyra would have been stuck with until it had been in orbit around the sun for at least several months, if not longer!

All that said, isn't this a more likely appearance for Zyra than the Lollypop Land painting, colorful though it may be?






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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Say what you will...

Challenge accepted.

Regardless of its size, Bellus is shown toasting Earth before Earth is completely destroyed.



So we know that at some distance from Bellus there's a "Goldilocks zone" (not too hot and not too cold for comfort).

Second, Zyra might not have been experiencing a day/night cycle like Earth's. It could have had one side always facing Bellus, like our moon always presents the same side toward us. Or it could have had a cycle like Mercury, which experiences one full day every two orbits around the sun.

In other words, Zyra might have had one permanent hot side, one permanent cold side, and a temperate zone in between. Or it might have had very long days and nights; long enough for winter's snow and ice to melt and vegetation to spring up during a long growing season (but not hot enough to roast the veggies). This would have kept half the planet at a time frozen while the other half blossomed, and this dual state would creep slowly around Zyra as it rotated relative to Bellus, making the summer/winter cycle longer than one Zyran year, and resulting from the planet's rate of rotation rather than the tilt of its axis, which is what causes our seasonal cycles. There's nothing requiring Zyra's days to be 24 hours or its years 365 days during its orbits of Bellus. Then there's the orientation of Zyra's axis relative to its orbital plane around Bellus to consider.

So there are a number of possible scenarios to support a comfortable and lush environment on Zyra, together with snow and ice during its wanderings through space with Bellus.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
Challenge accepted.

Regardless of its size, Bellus is shown toasting Earth before Earth is completely destroyed.






So we know that at some distance from Bellus there's a "Goldilocks zone" (not too hot and not too cold for comfort).

I beg to differ, Professor.

Although your reasoning is impeccable, it proceeds from the false premise that we're seeing the earth "toasted" in the shot above, when it fact we're actually seeing it "scrambled". Very Happy

Look closely at the screen shots below and you'll notice that the bright areas we see on the surface are not caused by the crust being burned by the heat from Bellus. They're caused by the crust being fractured as a result of Bellus' gravity in the last few moments of the collision. Magma is exploding through cracks in the surface, creating the bright explosions.

Although the earth is clearly receiving considerable heat from Bellus at this extremely close range, I suspect the red-hot areas are actually oceans of lava which have been drawn from the fragmented crust beneath them.






However, the most compelling evidence that gravity is causing all this, rather than radiated heat from Bellus, are the strings of molten material being torn away from the earth and pulled towards Bellus. We see quite a number of glowing streamers and balls of fire flowing from Earth to Bellus in the few seconds which the shot lasts display.











After cutting to a brief scene of the unconscious crewmen, we see the last death throes of the Earth when the giant fragments of the crust separate and are hauled towards Bellus.







I had to carefully pick the very brief instant shown below, just after the earth is ripped apart completely and the molten core explodes from inside the ragged fragments, rushing towards Bellus. Then the earth completely disintegrates and the fiery remnants of the molten core explode outward and envelope the scattered pieces of the crust.









Watch the scene at the very end of the clip below and you'll notice that we never see the remaining debris actually impact Bellus.

As for your interesting theory about Bellus having a "Goldilocks zone", predicated on the assumption that Bellus is shown emitting enough heat to burn up the earth, I think I've demonstrated that the heat we see was mostly from inside the earth, not from Bellus.

That being the case, I'm afraid lil' old Bellus doesn't put out enough heat to warm Zyra . . . unless the poor thing ventured so close it would be torn apart like the Earth!

And it certainly doesn't emit enough light to promote photosynthesizes to nourish the plants we see growing in Candy Land! Cool

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course! How could I have missed the cracks?

But then just because Bellus is tearing Earth apart by gravity, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that it isn't hot enough to warm a planet, short of tearing the planet apart.

Maybe I could take some measurements off the movie and perform some calculations. (Where did I store my slide rule?)

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
But then just because Bellus is tearing Earth apart by gravity, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that it isn't hot enough to warm a planet, short of tearing the planet apart.

After doing a some research about red dwarfs, I'm less certain about my conclusions concerning a frozen Zyra. The question is more complex than I realized.

For example, red dwarfs range in mass from 0.075 to 0.50 solar mass — in other words, they range from 50% of the mass of the sun to less than 7.5% the mass. Bellus is apparently at the small end of the range, based on what we see of it in the movie.

However, they burn much hotter than I thought. Wikipedia says:

The sun burns at 5,778 K. A red dwarf, despite its lower level of visible light, burns at 4,000 K. Even the largest red dwarfs (for example HD 179930, HIP 12961 and Lacaille 8760) have only about 10% of the Sun's luminosity.

That's an interesting statement, because it means Bellus could indeed burn up the earth as shown in the last scene . . . but the lower level of visible light it produces doesn't bode well for the idea that Zyra could have a thriving ecosystem.

Warm, yes. Sunny and bright, no. Sad

Bellus didn't produce visible light much brighter than a full moon, which I thought was completely bogus until I learned more about red dwarves. It's still presented as a being much dimmer than it really would be, of course.

Despite all the heat Bellus produced as a typical red dwarf (about 4/5 the heat the sun), the low level of visible light wouldn't exactly make poor Zyra a good place to plant a garden!






That makes it sound like a red dwarf could not have a "habitable zone", because it wouldn't get enough light for plant life. And yet, astronomers have discovered earthlike planets orbiting red dwarfs in tight orbits that actually are in habitable zones. But even then, there's a problem. From Wikipedia again:

Planets in the habitable zone of a red dwarf would be so close to the parent star that they would likely be tidally locked. This would mean that one side would be in perpetual daylight and the other in eternal night.

This could create enormous temperature variations from one side of the planet to the other. Such conditions would appear to make it difficult for forms of life similar to those on Earth to evolve.


That being the case, the vegetation we see on Zyra could never have evolved in the first place, much less survived in orbit around Bellus. Wikipedia also offers the gloomy description below on that subject.

And it appears there is a great problem with the atmosphere of such tidally locked planets: the perpetual night zone would be cold enough to freeze the main gases of their atmospheres, leaving the daylight zone nude and dry. On the other hand, recent theories propose that either a thick atmosphere or planetary ocean could potentially circulate heat around such a planet.

That last sentence suggests that the backside of a tidally locked planet might not be frozen — but it wouldn't get any sunlight for vegetation! And there's another reason why life would be no pick-nick on planets orbiting a red dwarf.

Variability in stellar energy output may also have negative impacts on the development of life. Red dwarfs are often flare stars which can emit gigantic flares, doubling their brightness in minutes. This variability may also make it difficult for life to develop and persist near a red dwarf.

Since we have every reason to believe that Bellus was a very small red dwarf (Dr. Hendron actually states that Bellus "a dozen times larger than our Earth", which makes it smaller than Jupiter), the orbit of Zyra would have to be relatively close to Bellus to be within the habitable zone (as stated in Wikipedia excerpt above). But a close orbit would also cause it to be tidally locked, preventing it from rotating, and causing it to get all the heat on one hemisphere.

So, the problem with Zyra having all those colorful plants is complicated by the fact that for it to be in the "Goldilocks zone" of Bellus it would end up tidally locked, roasted on one side and frozen on the other. And the frequent solar flares a red dwarf is plagued with would prevent life from ever evolving at all.

But even if Bellus was not prone to flares, a red dwarf only produces about 10% of the visible light the sun does — far too low for plant life. And if it orbited far enough from Bellus to avoid being tidally locked, it would get even less, since the "Goldilocks zone" (the orbital distance just right to keep the planet uniformly heated — IF it rotated) seems to require an orbital distance so close it becomes tidally locked.

Obviously I was wrong when I said the only way Zyra could get enough heat to remain warm would be to orbit so close it would be torn apart. But conditions aren't favorable for life even when it's far enough back not to be riped asunder!

So, was the final scene in When Worlds Collide completely bogus?

Well, perhaps not completely.

I considered the possibility that if Zrya was in fact tidally locked and frozen on one side while hot on the other.

However, the Ark might have arrived right at the terminator line between the hot and cold hemispheres. If so, it could land on the frozen area as shown in the movie, and then the crew could look off into the distance at a temperate region, which was neither frozen nor super-heated.

Unfortunately the area would be barren, not covered in lush vegetation, because conditions favorable to the evolution and survival of life don't exist on planets orbiting red dwarfs. The low level of visible light, the temperature extremes of the two hemispheres, and the frequent solar flares prevent it.

In short, we're pretty much back to this. Wink




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Maurice
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, plant life as we know it could not exist, but plant life evolved to sustain on such puny sunlight would be a different matter.

The plants wouldn't be green though.

M class stars radiate most strongly at infrared wavelengths, so any plant life would need to be capable of absorbing the entire spectrum of visible light plus infrared, which means they would be very dark colored, maybe even look black. But there are other issues . . .

From this site:


Quote:
Photosynthetic Life under Water

Under red dwarf stars, plant-type life on land may not be possible because photosynthesis might not generate sufficient energy from infrared light to produce the oxygen needed to block dangerous ultraviolet light from such stars at the very close orbital distances needed for a planet to be warmed enough to have liquid water on its surface.

Given at least nine meters (roughly 30 feet) of water on the planet, photosynthetic microbes (including mats of algae, cyanobacteria, and other photosynthetic bacteria) and plant-like protoctists (such as floating seaweed or kelp forests attached to the seafloor) could be protected from "planet-scalding" ultraviolet flares produced by young red dwarf stars, according to Victoria Meadows of Caltech, principal investigator at the NASA Astrobiology Institute's Virtual Planetary Laboratory.

Microbial mats could float near the water's surface for efficient photosynthesis when a star is calm, then sink to a safe depth when a flare hits.

Life could eventually spread farther when such stars evolve pass their flare stage, since spectral-type M stars emit much less ultraviolet radiation once they quiet down. Until an atmospheric ozone-layer develops from oxygen gas released by early photosynthetic bacterial life such as cyanobacteria, Earth-type life may need to stay underwater to stay shielded from damaging stellar ultraviolet radiation even under less active stars.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thinking Outside the "Plot"!
________________________________

Holy mackerel, Maurice, you brought up a whole line of thought on the subject! This is a real game changer, Pal!

Until I read your post it didn't occur to me that we hadn't considered the true long-range history of Zyra. We know from the sequel novel, After Worlds Collide, that the survivors found perfectly preserved, hi-tech "domed cities" on Bronson Beta (Zyra), and we know that this movie paid homage to that idea by including "man-made" structures in the distance when the survivors look outside after landing.






All this time, I've been talking about how life couldn't have evolved on a planet that orbited a red dwarf star . . . as if Zyra first formed as a planet around the rogue star Bellus!

But wait a minute. That's not true!

Obviously Bellus captured Zyra from a G2 star and carried if off into space millions of years ago. Throughout the long history of Zyra in it's ordinal star system, it evolved it's own life forms, including a sentient species who built the structures we see in the last moments of the movie! Shocked

We can toss out all our suggestions that Zyra's orbit ever occupied the habitable zone of Bellus, and we can instead place the planet far enough from the red dwarf so that it's not tidally locked and being roasted on one side while frozen on the other.

That way we can consider the fact that the "kidnapped" planet was fertile and well populated by sentient beings when it was tugged into space and then completely frozen, locking all the remnants of the advanced civilization into the ice covering, along with some elements of it's earth-like ecosystem!

We know that the ecosystem in Alaska survives each sunless winter for 67 days, and we know some seeds, root systems, and even plants can survive even longer after being frozen in ice.

So, if Zyra was carried along through deep space at a fair distance from Bellus, with its surface completely frozen while some of the plants hibernated in the ice, the most resilient of the plants could start growing again when Zyra was warmed by the approaching sun.

In fact, Bellus might have been just far enough from Zyra through its eons-long journey to provide a modicum of warmth, though not enough to prevent its atmosphere from freezing on the surface.

When Bellus and Zyra grew closer to the sun, Zyra's atmosphere thawed out, along with some of the ice in the equatorial zone receiving the most sunlight.

The movie states that the time from the first discovery of Bellus and Zyra is eight months. That seems a bit too short for the two bodies to travel 3 billion miles (as Dr. Hendron states in the initial briefing). If they were going that fast we certainly wouldn't have gotten those two nice shots of Bellus hanging in the night sky, apparently motionless. Those two events were supposed be several weeks apart!





However, my point is that if we go by what seems to be happening in the movie, Bellus and Zyra are on final approach as they travel between Mars and Earth for several weeks, with Bellus growing slowly larger in the sky above. That would give Zyra time to do some serious thawing out with the combined help of Bellus (closer than the sun, and 4/5 as hot) and the sun itself (hot enough to give us nice beaches with plenty of gals in bikinis. Cool

What I'm saying here, folks, is that by the time our lucky raffle-winning space explorers landed on their new home, Zyra would have a temperate zone with liquid water and several weeks of growth from the most resilient Zyranian plants which sprouted up beneath the warm rays of good old Sol.

Hot damn, guys! We've actually managed to vindicate the climax of When Worlds Collide and refute my initial assertions that it had to be a barren, arctic environment!

In short, folks . . . we're pretty much back to this!

Again! Wink

(Click on the image to see the "big one".)






Wait a minute . . . does this mean I just won a debate against myself?

Damn, I'm good at this!
Shocked
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, there are whole classes of plants that do not use photosynthesis or chlorophyll for sustinance.

Fungi for example.

Perhaps H.P. Lovecraft's novel THE FUNGI FROM YUGGOTH (Which perports a Plutonic system of nature based on non-photosynthetic principles may not be too far from possability.
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
However, there are whole classes of plants that do not use photosynthesis or chlorophyll for sustenance.

Fungi for example.

Fungi aren't plants. They've been classified as a separate kingdom since the 1960s.
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotpens wrote:
Fungi aren't plants. They've been classified as a separate kingdom since the 1960s.

Vegetation then?
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Hold on, guys. We were mistaken to think Zyra's planetary history all took place around a red dwarf.

It didn't.

I pointed out the important fact we'd all missed: that before Zyra was captured by Bellus it was a thriving planet which orbited a G2 star (probably) with an ecosystem which evolved like the one on Earth (generally speaking), along with the sentient race who built the massive structures and then perished (unless they escaped, the way they did in the novel).

When Zyra was carried off by Bellus, the planet froze in space — along with the animals and 99.9% of the plant life. When it got near the sun, it thawed out and the remnants of the plant life which survived the freeze began to germinate.

Like Jeff Goldblum said, "Life finds a way."

So why are we quibbling about fungi now, for God's sake? Shocked

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fungi are the "quibbly fruit".
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.yahoo.com/news/newly-discovered-planet-could-harbor-163028011.html


Quote:

Science

A Newly Discovered Planet Could Harbor Life — and It's (Relatively) Close to Us

Aric Jenkins,

A newly discovered exoplanet could harbor life, scientists say. And it's even (relatively) close to Earth — only 11 light-years away.

Ross 128 b has some similar characteristics to Earth, astronomers said in a new study published in the journal Astronomy and Astrophysics. It's roughly the same size and may have a comparable surface temperature, an environment that could allow life to flourish.

"The special properties of this system means that we are contributing our bit on the search of an Earth 2.0." Nicola Astudillo-Defru, one of the study's co-authors at the University of Geneva's observatory, wrote in an email to CNN.

Ross 128 b orbits around its host star, Ross 128 (with no letter), every 9.9 days. The host is what's called a red dwarf star, the most common type of star found in the universe. Red dwarfs are also the coolest and most faint.

Scientists are keenly interested in red dwarfs because other exoplanets have been found revolving around the abundant stars.

And even though Ross 128 b is 20 times closer to its star than Earth is to the sun, the planet could still have a comfortable temperature because red dwarf stars are so much cooler, astronomers say. The planet also receives only 1.38 times the radiation that Earth gets from the Sun.

In addition, astronomers describe the star as "quiet," meaning it's unlikely to emit flares that could severely harm or outright decimate life on a planet.

Scientists discovered Ross 128 and its orbiting planet by using the European Southern Observatory's special instrument for locating planets called HARPS (High-Accuracy Radial velocity Planet Searcher).

"A detailed study investigated the movement of our stellar neighbor by combining data from the Hipparcos satellite and ground-bases velocimeters," Astudillo-Defru wrote to CNN. "They list all the close encounters with other stars, and because of the relative movements of stars and the Sun, it results that Ross 128 will be our closest star."

It's not as close as Proxima b, currently the closest Earth-like exoplanet known to man, but it could be one day because Ross 128 and its planet are moving closer to our solar system. And it might not be the only one.


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