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Outlander Series: Is it Science Fiction or Fantasy?
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MeInChicago
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:19 pm    Post subject: Outlander Series: Is it Science Fiction or Fantasy? Reply with quote

Outlander Series by Diana Gabaldon.

Is it science fiction? Or is it fantasy? Her series involves time travel via stone monoliths, like Stonehenge.

What are your thoughts?

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MeInChicago
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and what is pure science fiction?
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would offer this: If the monoliths operate by mystical means, like by channeling cosmic forces, it's fantasy. If they involve some apparatus derived from technology, it's sci-fi.
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scotpens
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
I would offer this: If the monoliths operate by mystical means, like by channeling cosmic forces, it's fantasy. If they involve some apparatus derived from technology, it's sci-fi.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke
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Krel
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotpens wrote:
orzel-w wrote:
I would offer this: If the monoliths operate by mystical means, like by channeling cosmic forces, it's fantasy. If they involve some apparatus derived from technology, it's sci-fi.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

I believe he was referring to the effect, not the cause.

A magic staff could be loaded with technology to give a magical effect, Stargate was real fond of this. A rock that produces the same effect, but is just a rock is magic, not technology.

Although some fantasy stories have treated magic like a form of technology.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Science Fiction versus Fantasy. Hmmm . . .

This hypothetical scenario illustrates the difference.

If your car won't run, and the mechanic reached into his tool box to pull out a phenamorhic retromonitor that quickly fixes the problem — it's science fiction.

The reason? Because if the phenamorhic retromonitor malfunctioned, he could order another one from Stanley Tools.

But if he reached into his robe, pulled a wizard's wand, and waves it over the car to make it run — it's fantasy.

The reason? Because if the wand didn't work . . . he could not order another one from Stanley Tools.

Gentlemen, I hope that clears up the matter.

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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:53 am; edited 3 times in total
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! The Stanley Tools rule.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



At the risk of being accused of simplifying the issue, I'll simply point out that the premise of the series (when summarized on both Wikipedia and IMDB) makes no effort to explain how the time travel element of the story is accomplished.

In fact. IMDB just says, "a married combat nurse from 1945 who is mysteriously swept back in time to 1743".

Therefore, since the series makes no attempt to explain this occurrence as the result of either science or magic, we can't simply assume it's super-advanced science which looks like magic.

If we could do that, then the entire Harry Potter series could be labeled as science fiction. And that's something I'm sure Ms J.K. Rowling would object to. Shocked


______________ OUTLANDER - Season 1 Trailer


__________

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of on target. Years ago I once saw the first 15 minutes of a TV pilot with Stockard Channing, where she is a San Francisco Police Detective on an alternate Earth run on Magic. The Police weapons are ruin stones, cars are self driving, the Golden Gate Bridge is held up by magic, buildings are powered by magic, and ghosts and poltergeists are real.

Stockard Channing and her partner are investigating instances o magic failing, looking for sabotage, but not finding any.

From the clues given in the 15 minutes I saw, I think I know why magic started failing. I think it is because someone, or ones have started using non magic technology, and it is causing magic to fail.

I wish I could have seen the whole pilot, and I wish I knew the name of the pilot. I don't remember if the name was even given. If I'm correct in what I think, the show would be about physical sciences taking over from magic. Now is the pilot SF or fantasy?

David.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it has to be an "either - or" situation.

Years ago...back in the 50's....there was a comic called WEIRD SCIENCE FANTASY that really mostly embodied science fiction. Why can't we just consider that there is a hybrid category that contains elements of both genres?

Holding to strict definitions only leads to exceptions to the definitions.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Your absolutely right, Gord! Very Happy

Elements of fantasy in a story that contains strong sci-fi concepts doesn't automatically disqualify the story from being science fiction.

Famed science fiction author Larry Niven has published a number of wonderful stories set entirely on a universe where magic is not only real, it's operates according to consistent rules and can thus be utilized to accomplish specific tasks.

In other words, Niven turned the use off magic into an "exact science". Very Happy



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Note to David: I think the TV movie you saw was Paradox (2010). This trailer might jog your memory. The YouTube video describes it this way.
________________________________

PARADOX follows homicide detective Sean Nault (Kevin Sorbo), a cop on a parallel Earth whose technology is powered exclusively by magic. Sean investigates a baffling series of murders committed by a means he's never seen before: science.

Sean is aided by Lenore (Steph Song), a member of the ridiculed subculture of "pragmatists" who believe science is more than the stuff of myths & children's stories, and the 130-year-old sorcerer Winston Churchill (A.C. Peterson).

Sean uncovers an ominous plot that will lead him to another dimension and the realization that, unless he prevents it, both earths could well be destroyed.

Also Starring Christopher Judge, Alisen Down, Jerry Wasserman, and Michael St. John Smith.

________________________________


_____________ Paradox (2010) | Official Trailer


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________________________________

The only Stockard Channing role I can find that might be the one you saw is the parallel universe version of The West Wing, in which she plays the wife of the president, a powerful wizard (Martin Sheen) who uses magic to rule The Enchanted States of America. Cool

My DISH package includes PUC (the Parallel Universe Channel) and they've shown that miniseries several times. In fact, theoretically they've shown it an infinite number of times . . . Wink

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
My DISH package includes PUC (the Parallel Universe Channel) and they've shown that miniseries several times. In fact, theoretically they've shown it an infinite number of times . .

Theoretically...You've WATCHED it an infinite number of times as well . …!
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not what I saw Bud. It was a TV pilot in the late 90s, I think. Maybe the early 2000s. The web site only had the first fifteen minutes. It took place in San Francisco, and there were no firearms, at least not in the first fifteen minutes of the pilot. It did show Police Officers on the range firing their ruin stones. Stockard Channing was one of the stars.

I've never heard of "PARDOX", but I would like to see it.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Ah, shucks. I thought I'd found it. The premise was so similar to your description. And none of the summaries I read for Paradox stated what city it was set in, so I figured it might be San Fancisco. Plus, the story is about the new "invention" of guns, so they wouldn't be present in the story until later in the episode.

But silly me, the correct answer was right in front me when I checked Stockard Channing's filmography on IMDB.

Your "lost" pilot is 17th Precinct (2011)! Notice that Paradox was release in 2010, one year earlier than 17th Precinct! Shocked

This is from Wikipedia.
________________________________

The series takes place in the American city of Excelsior (shot in Vancouver, modeled on San Francisco), in a world where science was never "invented", and instead of using "oil, electricity, [and] coal", mankind relies on plant- and fire-powered magic to run society.

The police of Excelsior's 17th Precinct use spells to collect evidence and information, they defend themselves with "magic discs", and they psychically access "the stream" (a smokey light beam) for information, printouts, and newspapers.

________________________________

And here, David my friend, is the unaired pilot in three parts. Cool


_______ 17th Precinct Unaired Pilot (part 1 of 3)


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____)__ 17th Precinct Unaired Pilot (part 2 of 3)


__________



_______ 17th Precinct Unaired Pilot (part 3 of 3)


__________

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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bud, the strange thing is that I looked at the Stockard Channings list in the IMDB, but didn't notice "17th Precinct". I also thought that I saw it around 99/2000. So much for my memory. I'll say the city was modeled on San Francisco, there are scenes of the Golden Gate Bridge hanging in the sky with no physical supports.

I did look up "Paradox", and saw that it was based off a limited run comic book. I also noticed the slightly modified Nerf gun that Kevin Sorbo was holding in the trailer. What would SF&F movies and TV shows do for fantasy weapons without Nerf guns. Laughing

David.
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