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CGI Sets!
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Pow
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:34 pm    Post subject: CGI Sets! Reply with quote

I just watched on Facebook at the ST The Original Series site a fascinating demo!

Via CGI they took a scene from an episode of ST(TOS) that was on the bridge & replaced the original bridge set with the bridge set from the ST movies. Including Kirk's Command chair.

I am a devoted ST fan but some of the sets from the original series have not dated well. Planet sets, offices, alien vessel sets & so forth.

Just as they have remastered the visual effects for the series & made the visuals more impressive, they could also do this for some of the practical sets.

I realize that this won't be to everyone's liking just as the remastered version is not their preference. But the solution to that has always do not watch/purchase the remastered version & continue to watch the series as it originally looked.

So the same can be done with remastered sets.

I'm not suggesting that they alter every set on the show from the Enterprise to non-Enterprise sets.
However, some enhancing could be done in certain instances.

One example would be the episode "Return of the Archons." The computer, Landru, at the conclusion of this otherwise good episode is of a poor quality. Imagine FX maestros redoing Landru in a really cool manner.

At any rate this new visual tech opens up a host of possibilities.
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Brent Gair
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hilarious!
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you post a link, please? There are too many ST:TOS pages to check through them all.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is the short video that Pow was referring to.

https://vimeo.com/12023417

It's magnificent. Bear in mind, it's just a demo and not meant to be a big improvement on the shot that was used, but it certainly proves that it's possible to replace those poor old plywood structures with beautifully designed, futuristic "sets".

This is, after all, not a show about the 1960s. It's a show about the future — and it should by God look like it. As I said before, we're in an age when all artwork can be treated as a work in progress.

Modern technology is catching up with the world that TOS portrays. That's a lot more exciting to me that just watching an old program to get a few warm and fuzzy memories from my teenage years.

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Robert (Butch) Day
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure this is a good idea?

Should we now update Space Patrol? Rod Brown of the Rocket Rangers? Captain Z-Ro? Captain Midnight?

Should we replace the astrogator on the C-57-D with a 3-D hologram such as used in the Lost In Space movie?

Eventually they'd look like each other with no diversity of style or design.

I'd be very careful of what one wishes for.

Look at what they did on Star Trek New Voyages The Holiest Thing.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert (Butch) Day wrote:
Are you sure this is a good idea?

Should we now update Space Patrol? Rod Brown of the Rocket Rangers? Captain Z-Ro? Captain Midnight?

Sure! Why the hell not?

Let's be realistic. Do we really think that after all us old fogeys are dead and gone, the young people of today will have the slightest interest in ancient shows with with plywood sets and laughable special effects?

No, of course they won't.

In fact, the only real interest we have in the bad special effects and the phony sets is our own childhood nostalgia. And frankly, even that wears thin after half a century . . .


Robert (Butch) Day wrote:
Should we replace the astrogator on the C-57-D with a 3-D hologram such as was used in the Lost In Space movie?

Again — sure, why not? I'd love to see creative variations like that. That's why I'm constantly fiddling with the jpegs I post on All Sci-Fi. I boost the brightness and the color, I improve the composition, and even add hi-lights and color to the people's eyes whenever the photo shows nothing but black dots under the eyebrows!

I think we should remember that the same technology which gives us the ability to make these creative modifications has also given us the ability to restore the damage caused by age. And it allows us to store these treasures digitally, so that tragedies like the fire that destroyed the original negative of Forbidden Planet will never happen again.

So why not take this magnificent technology to the next level and create imaginative variations that pump new life into old shows? Dammit, after 50 years of watching Star Trek, I welcome anything that makes me sit up and holler, "Wow, that looks spectacular!"

Good God a'mighty, folks, we're not talking about giving the original Mona Lisa a nose job or gluing a bigger phallus onto Michelangelo's David! Absolutely nothing is lost by creating these modified versions of old movies and programs.

Nothing is being harmed!

So, I think the folks who oppose these brilliant and beautiful creations should stop complaining to those of us who appreciate and enjoy them. If they don't like what's being done, they are cordially invited to just ignore the damn things.


Robert (Butch) Day wrote:
Eventually they'd look like each other with no diversity of style or design.

Silly remark, Butch. It's a world of endless possibilities for these artists, equipped with tools that turn imagination into reality in ways that seem like miracles. Why would anyone object to their efforts to express their talents and share their works with the rest of us.

We don't have worry about a lack of diversity in style or design. Just the reverse, in fact: diversity of style has exploded in unimaginable directions.


Robert (Butch) Day wrote:
Look at what they did on Star Trek New Voyages The Holiest Thing.

Puzzling statement, Butch. The good part of The Holiest Thing was what they did with CGI effects. The story and the production values were actually not very good.
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Pye-Rate
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all that you argue that CGI is so great it still looks unreal. The best CGI has been animated over maquettes. Model makers rejoice your jobs are still needed.
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Pow
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very well said, Bud. I couldn't agree with you more.

What we are discussing here is altering the appearance of these older TV shows but not the content. The look can be different while the scripting remains intact so that the plot is unaltered in any way.

The reality is that if this technology was available to Serling, Stevens & Stefano, Roddenberry, et al, back in the day they would have run to it.

And they would have utilized this tech even after the demise of their respective series in order to achieve the visions they had for it.

However, the tech did not exist. And they were also hampered constantly by tight budgets as well as grinding shooting schedules. So their respective visions were often not achieved.

To those who oppose any enhancements all I can say is that they should always make available the original, unaltered versions of these beloved films & tv series for you.

For me, I love the remastered Star Trek. I would enjoy seeing them remaster such other series as The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits. The stories must remain the exact same but only the visual aspects can be updated.
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the capabilities of CGI absolutely mind-boggling. (Case in point, that short clip of ST:TOS wherein the bridge set is replaced all around the actors, with the camera in motion. And this was accomplished on somebody's home computer. Shocked )

Most of my favorite sci-fi TV series from the early '50s are preserved only on Kinescope recordings. Kinescope was a 16mm film made from a camera pointed at a cathode ray tube (i.e., a TV screen).

___________


So the image quality was even lower than the original TV image. (Although it may have been a better quality than what I was seeing at the time on our home TV, what with the dicey antenna and broadcast signal.)

Say... With CGI we can even make the image quality as crappy as we actually saw on our TVs when the weather was bad or if we lived in a fringe reception area; you know, with "snow", image fade-in/out, and the distortion you got from that knob that adjusted the horizontal skew and vertical roll (as in the title sequence from The Outer Limits).

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I made the statement below in the previous post about how I loved using my laptop to dress up the jpegs I used here, I wanted to include the examples below, but that damn Photobucket was down for 24 hours!

So, when I wrote this —


Bud Brewster wrote:
That's why I'm constantly fiddling with the jpegs I post on All Sci-Fi. I boost the brightness and the color, I improve the composition, and even add hi-lights and color to the people's eyes whenever the photo shows nothing but black dots under the eyebrows!

— I wanted to include these before-and-after examples of the screen shots I made of Christine Belford for a picture I posted on a Banacek thread.

I started with this screen shot, which obviously needs some work.



After considerable enhancements, it looks like this.



But at that size you can't really see the smaller details I added, like the way I improve Christine's eyes. I've been told that the eyes in my paintings and drawings are pretty good, so painting those in was actually something I've had experience with. Very Happy

_

The point of all this, of course, is that I'm delighted with the demonstration of the CGI set in the video of the Star Trek scene, and I'd love for a skilled team to do that with each scene in every episode!









No more boxy interiors, no more fake-looking planetary landscapes, no more embarrassing plywood sets.

As beautiful as the Enterprise bridge set looks, it's still loaded with regrettable features, like gaudy blinking control panels and static "screens" above the control panels that are obviously just transparencies lit from behind.

Yeah, I know what your thinking. Some folks will say, "But that's not how the original creators wanted it to look!"

To which I reply, "Frankly, Scarlet, I don't give a damn."

The people who made these movies and shows were hired to do a job. They were proud of what they created, but they don't own the finished products — the studios do. If the legal owners want to change anything at all, they have the right.

And I hate to say this, but changing the look of a show or movie so that it no longer matches the "original vision" of the writers and directors just doesn't bother me in the least.

My personal feelings about whether or not we should alter the look of older movies and shows is best expressed by how I answered Butch when he asked that question earlier. The answer was, of course —

Sure! Why the hell not? It doesn't affect the original, and if somebody doesn't like the results, they don't have to look at it. Today's wonderful technology makes it possible to consider all artwork as "works in progress".

In short. Relax and have fun with it. Hell's bells, that's what it's for! Very Happy

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Some folks will say, "But that's not how the original creators wanted it to look!"

That's what they may say, but that's not quite the case. It's more like that's as good as the creators could make it look within the constraints of budget, time, and technology of the period. It's usually the same with miniatures and optical effects. "Gee, they sure did an admirable job, considering it's only a model!" "Wow, he made a $100,000 production look like they had at least $200,000 to toss around!" "That's a damned good matte painting; you can hardly tell it really is a painting." "Not at all a bad effect. The camera had to be locked down, of course."

I imagine also that many amateur model builders have had dreams of providing their handiwork for the industry. They have an allegiance to miniatures built on those aspirations.

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Robert (Butch) Day
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what happens when the CGI SFX is better in QUALITY due to different film stocks (nitrate film stock is no longer used)?

Since the original program is mostly unknown, why not go whole-hog and simply remake the series (maybe a la TNG)?

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Pow
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the tech exists to alter the wardrobes from our old fav TV shows?

Could they morph the uniforms from ST(TOS) to the ones worn by the Enterprise crew in ST:The Wrath Of Khan?

I like the original uniforms,so I'm not suggesting that they do a change like that but I'm only using this as an example.

There is a TV western that I am a big fan of called "Laredo"that ran from 1965-'67 which was about the Texas Rangers.

On the second season of the series 2 of the cast members were given new outfits that I thought were much cooler than the ones they wore for the first season of the show.

Could someone one day actually go back & alter the clothing of these 2 lead characters & have them appear in the niftier looking duds from season 2 but have them worn for season 1?

Laredo was done as a 90-minute spinoff from an episode of The Virginian TV series. In that pilot episode the 3 Texas Rangers wore entirely different clothing than they did for either season of the Laredo series.

Could they even go back & alter the clothing for the pilot by having the 2 rangers appear in their season 2 outfits from Laredo?

Obviously this is highly unlikely that anyone will go to the trouble to do this but its fun to speculate about the CGI ability to enhance not only visual FX & sets but also clothing.

Going along the same line of thinking what about CGI enhancements of props & make-up & body suits?

Could one day they create a completely different looking Gorn alien creature for the ST episode Arena?
In the ST episode A Private Little War an alien gorilla-like creature appears.It is not a great body suit.
Could it one day be redone to be a fantastic looking animal?

In the episode The Changeling the Enterprise encounters a earth/alien hybrid probe called Nomad. I actually do enjoy its design. But could they CGI the prop to be something else entirely? Could parts of Nomad be morphing right in front of the crew indicating that its tech was constantly advancing in real time?

How about being able to CGI make-ups? The Klingons first introduced in the episode Errand Of Mercy could now look like the ones we see on ST:TNG like Worf?

It all boggles the mind, eh?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

_______________________________

Pow, you and I definitely think alike on this. Nothing is "sacred" and simply should not be tampered with. As an artist, a writer, and full-fledged geek, I'm fascinated by what might be possible, and it won't bother me a bit if somebody takes a shot at every wild idea you proposed!

What a cool age we live in.
Cool

Robert (Butch) Day wrote:
Since the original program is mostly unknown, why not go whole-hog and simply remake the series (maybe a la TNG)?

I'm not entirely clear on what you mean with most of that comment, Butch, but one part I definitely agree with.

"Why not go whole-hog?"

Hey, now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about! Very Happy

Screw all this wimpy talk about NOT updating, improving, enhancing, modifying, and rejuvenating any movie or series we want to!

We might just polish up an old favorite and give it a new shine, or we might start from scratch and do a CGI version that replicates it frame-for-frame, giving it a greater clarity, brighter colors, and a wider scope — IMAX style.

I'd love to see a version of Forbidden Planet that pushed back the edges of the screen and showed me more of what I would see if I was standing right there on Altair 4, watching what was happening.

Or even a movie like 20 Million Miles to Earth. Imagine a scene like this —



— on an IMAX screen, so that it looked like this!



To me, the extra background is not "dead space". It alive and kickin'! The age of rectangular "tunnel vision" is coming to an end as we move towards bigger TV's and sharper images — and of course, 3D.

The careful composition of the film frame is crucial . . . when the screen is the traditional size, imposing the standard limit on what the audience is able to see. But if the screen is larger, naturally it can include elements of the image outside the most important parts of the picture.

And a good director of photography (or a CGI filmmaker) can fill that extra area with very interesting elements.

Butch, you started your question above with, "So what happens when . . . "

Well, I don't know — but I'm sure we'll think of something. That's the fun part! Very Happy

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Robert (Butch) Day
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
I'd love to see a version of Forbidden Planet that pushed back the edges of the screen and showed me more of what I would see if I was standing right there on Altair 4, watching what was happening.


Better yet, a FINISHED version of Forbidden Planet!

Bud Brewster wrote:
Butch, you started your question above with, "So what happens when . . . "

Well, I don't know — but I'm sure we'll think of something. That's the fun part! Very Happy


That's just what makes this board the Best on the Web!!!!
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