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Forbidden Planet (1956)
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

You're quite welcome, Gord! Very Happy

As for the Id monster bearing some resemblance to the Krell, we've now got enough clues to question that idea. In fact, the only aspect of the Id monster that conforms to the features we know the Krell had are a wide body and a big head.

But it has no tail and it has no arms at all, much less four of them!

Perhaps the Krell machine based the monster on the most frightening creature that was native to Altair 4. However, Doc's comment about the plaster model of the foot indicates that it contradicts evolutionary development in several ways.

Bear in mind that everything we see and hear in the movie contains information the screenwriters (Cyril and whoever helped him fix the less polished aspects of that script I posted) wanted us to use as clues to understand what the screenwriters had in mind.

In the case of the ID footprint model, Doc said, "This thing runs counter to every known law of adaptive evolution. Anywhere in the galaxy, this thing is a nightmare!" This dialogue line is word-for-word from the script, in this case.



I think that what Cyril was telling us is that the Id monster is not based on any creature that ever actually existed. It's a hodge-podge of physical features, designed to be both terrifying and completely unfamiliar.

And it certainly succeeds in doing THAT, eh? Shocked



By the way, Gord, one of the most amusing differences in the dialogue between the script and film is this line when the men are about to leave after lunch.



Adams sees Robby pull up in front of the house, and here's what he says on page 36 of the script. (I retyped the text to clear it up). This cracked me up! Laughing



Perhaps Mr. Hume thought was going to look a like this! Wink

~ Click to see a bigger version.



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Krel
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
But it has no tail and it has no arms at all, much less four of them!

I have to disagree Bud. If you watch the attack on the ship, you can see that the ID has a short tail. It is not a long dragging tail, but it has one. It also has a goatee.

Which brings me too.

I have a book from the early/mid 70s named "Cinema of he Fantastic". The book chronicles five or six movies, the last on being "Forbidden Planet". I treasure this book because it gave me the name of a movie, who's images have been haunting me since I saw it on ABC in second grade. I am of course talking about "Forbidden Planet".

On one page is a photo of an animation cell of the ID done white on black. On the next page is a photo of Walter Pidgeon seated at the Krell Library, his face contorted, the guilty scene. Seeing the two photos next to each other, made me realize that the ID has a distorted version of Walter Pidgeon's face! How brilliant was that? Such attention to detail.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Fans of Journey to the Center of the Earth remember Gertrude the duck with fondness because the mild comic relief she provided was never overdone or blatantly corny.

But Cyril Hume's early draft of Forbidden Planet includes several scenes involving one of Altaira's monkeys. When Robby delivers the booze he brings a female monkey to provide the "championship" the cook asked Robby to get for him.

Cookie keeps the money as a pet, and it shows up in several lame attempts at comic relief — including one smack in the middle of the tense preparations before the big battle!

This excerpt is from the bottom of page 86 and the top of 87.



Concerning the puzzling fact that Doc takes the brain boost and promptly figures out the secret of the Krell machine after Morbius failed to do so for twenty years, important info on pages 66, 67, and 98 gives us a significant clue as to why that happened.

On pages 66 and 67, during the "plastic educator" scene, we learn that Morbius' "officially recorded I.Q." is only 141, and Doc's is 148. In other words, Doc was smarter than Morbius before either of them took the brain boost! Shocked

This is surprising, because 141 and 148 aren't overly impressive I.Q. scores. For example, the I.Q. test I was given when I was in high school said I was 130 (which by Krell standards makes me a REALLY low-grade moron), but it's just ten points below "near genius".

(Missed it by THAT much!) Rolling Eyes

However, the movie changes those scores in two ways.

First of all, Morbius' pre-boost score is higher than Doc's, instead of the other way around.

And second, both scores were raised considerably. In the movie, Morbius says his was 183 and Doc says his is 161.

However, Morbius said the brain boost "permanently doubled his intellectual capacity". That makes his "I.Q. in the movie after the boost" is 366! Conversely, Doc's would only be 282 if his own brain boost doubled his I.Q. as well.

But remember, according to Cyril Hume's version of the story, Morbius only went from 141 to 282.

And Doc went from 148 to 296 (again, assuming his was also doubled).

The point of all this is that if the movie had retained Hume's idea that Doc was originally the smarter of the two men both before and after their brain boosts, Doc would have the boosted I.Q. of 296 I.Q. and Morbius would have the boosted 282.

The reason that idea is worthy of consideration is that (a) Cyril Hume intended for Doc to be the smarter of the two men, and (b) it was Doc who figured out the Krell secret within minutes of his brain boost.

But here's another clue. Take a look at this from page 98.



That indicates that Doc got a significant larger brain boost than Morbius — which, by the way, is consistent with the idea that the boost was so strong it caused Doc's death soon afterwards.

What I'm doing is re-aligning the elements of the story in the movie so that they agree with the finally outcome, according to both the script and the movie. According to Cyril Hume, Doc started out smarter than Morbius, and he got a much stronger brain boost as well.

Therefore, it seems reasonable that Doc's I.Q. ended up being 400+! Shocked

And that would explain why Doc was able to make such a breakthrough in solving the mystery of both the Krell machine and the Krell extinction within a few minutes of obtaining his super-intellect.

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that most of the variations you point out were recapitulated in the novelization. Not ALL differences, but quite a few. The book was no doubt written from an even earlier draft and McDonald used his "authors discretion" to flesh out the story.

The emphasis on IQ ties in with the 50's education programs and was very "faddish", as was the Sigmund Freudian psychoanalytic theory used later.
History has shown that the IQ theory was bogus. Teachers and scientists used these scores to "prove" the superiority of one race over another not realizing that the "tests" were culturaly biased! (My IQ was 163 and I was constantly told that I should be doing better in school! )

By the way...…..

Was it at least a FEMALE chimp??????

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Maurice
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a ponderable:

Why would their be a plastic educator in the same room that monitors the power used by the great machine? Who were they training/measuring there, and why?

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
Here's a ponderable:

Why would their be a plastic educator in the same room that monitors the power used by the great machine? Who were they training/measuring there, and why?

Maurice, that's brilliant! Why indeed did the Krell have a device used to train and test their children "the way we use finger painting" in one of the "many laboratories" in the Krell machine complex?

Despite the fact that lab is beautiful and futuristic as hell, it doesn't seem to have anything other than the computer display "table", the plastic educator, the power gauges, and the entrance the shuttle car.

Oh, and a planetary self destruct switch that had no safety features whatsoever. Rolling Eyes



Admittedly there might have been more equipment we can't see (because the set didn't include it), but Cyril Hume did say that the lab was not very large, so there couldn't have been a great deal more to it.

However there are several flaws in the narrative that cause a bit of head scratching when you look closely at them.

For example, Morbius was obviously in bed when Adams and Ostrow arrived, because he shows up after Doc was brought out of the lab by Robby. He was standing in the living room on the side near the stairs leading up to the bedrooms.

And that brings up an interesting question.

Why did Morbius retire for the evening and leave the door to lab standing open, allowing Doc to use the brain boost?

On a related note, after receiving the brain boost I suppose Doc could have staggered out of the lab and part of the way down the tunnel, then encountered Robby and collapsed into the robots arms so he could be carried back to the living room.

Otherwise we'd have to assume that Robby followed Doc to the lab, climbed those step, picked up Doc, and climbed back down the steps, lumbered down the tunnel, walk through the study, and finally enter the living room — all of which would have taken more time than the brief period it took for Adams and Altaira to play out their love scene in the living room.

Don't get me wrong, guys, I love this movie, but sixty-three years of close inspection are bound to reveal things aren't quite as logical as they should be.

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Krel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is the lab set up like that? Because it is a showroom for the public, so it has a little bit of everything.

There had to have been thousands of Plastic Educators to service the Krell population, and just as many Library Consoles. There's no way that one Plastic Educator could have connected the whole Krell population into the Machine.

There was probably a control room, complete with duplicate energy gauges in a surface building that got destroyed in the apocalypse.

The destruct detonator is by the entrance for a quick getaway. Although you would think that it would have been a shutdown switch. Not a blow-the-whole-planet-to-smithereens-switch.

Morbius left the door and the lab open, because he was stressed out, which causes forgetfulness.

What I want to know is, where are the other labs located, how many there were, and what was in them?

David.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Morbius refers to the device as an "Educator" it doesn't seem to partake of any kind of teaching.

What it DOES do is stimulate synaptic neurons in the brain possibly even to reproduce and increase them in number. This would certainly cause a problem for hard skulled humans to contain, what Morbius calls "The whole knowledge of the Krell" in a physical way.

Perhaps this device was actually used as a kind of 3D printer or matter replicator for use in the lab...NOT a "teaching device" for Krell hatchlings.

Also, Morbius says that the library computer contains "The total history of the Krell.." BUT there is no information on the biology or biomedical records of the Krell….only the mathematical, engineering and physics records, possibly with a smattering of astrophysics and rare historical footnotes.

No Morbius….That was not the total history of the Krell, and as a Philogilist you should have known better!

Possibly he did, but the brain boost he got may have altered and skewed his intellect as well, making him to focus on math and physics.

He mentions that there were other "labs" on the planet and undoubtedly there were (other labs were designed for the film but never constructed.). There may have been medical labs, hospitals etc. Just conjecture, but hinted at in the script and film.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Gord, you've really hit on something! I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of it myself. Embarassed

The plastic educator was obviously designed to stimulate Krell brains the same way it did with the humans who used it. But it was too strong for us, and it caused the deaths of two humans (the Bellerophon captain and poor Doc). Somehow Morbius survived and reaped the benefits of the device.


Gord Green wrote:
Perhaps this device was actually used as a kind of 3D printer or matter replicator for use in the lab...NOT a "teaching device" for Krell hatchlings.

I'd have to disagree with the idea that the device produced anything but images of the objects the Krell users imagined. Morbius tells the officers that Altaira was "simply a 3 dimensional image" — which means that Cyril Hume's dialog is explaining what it really is to us in the audience. We can't really dispute that, since it's Hume talking, not the fictional character.

But remember, the Krell machine was created to do what you mentioned — "creation by mere thought" in the form of solid objects. So, I don't think they achieved that ability until they created the Krell machine.


Krel wrote:
There had to have been thousands of Plastic Educators to service the Krell population, and just as many Library Consoles. There's no way that one Plastic Educator could have connected the whole Krell population into the Machine.

Yes indeed, in the movie Morbius says, "This is just one of their laboratories," and in the script he states that there are "many of them" and he thinks the one we see in the movie is an important one (although he doesn't state why.)

But your comment made be aware of the fact that having a plastic educator in that particular lab had nothing to do with "educating children". As you suggested, there would be millions of the devices in science labs and educational centers all over the planet! In fact, every Krell home would have several of them! Smile

Such a device would be used by children and adults alike, as a means of presentiing their thoughts to individuals they wanted to share ideas with! That's what I do with jpegs, right here on All Sci-Fi! Cool

Science has proven that challenging our brains stimulates the growth of new dendrites! The plastic educator would actually accelerate this process. So, it's quite logical that this useful device would be employed by Krell individuals to aid them in any creative endeavor — be it art, science, architecture, or anything else!

And just by using the device, they would improving their own brain functions! Cool

Gentlemen, your brilliant observations have provided us with new revelations into both the Krell science and the Krell society. I salute you both with my two right arms while I hoist a cold beer in your honor with one of my two left arms.

My other left arm is trying to pull my tail out from the sofa cushions so I can get up and go to the bathroom . . . Rolling Eyes



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Maurice
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another ponderable.

What if Morbius, Adams and Altaira had jumped into the tube car and gone into the great machine itself? Would the machine be unsafe enough to actually project something that could harm itself into itself?

In the book of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy a point is made that that cabin of the Heart of Gold is "improbability" shielded so that the effects of the drive can't turn the ship's crew into yarn (take that, stupid movie) or a bowl of petunias.

In short, would the only safe place from the machine be in the machine?
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Well, I'll be doggone! In all these years and I never thought of the trio getting into the shuttle car to flee from the Id monster! That alone makes your idea well worth pondering. Very Happy

As far as them being safe, I'd say they wouldn't, simply because the lab actually WAS part of the great machine complex, and the machine didn't hesitate to melt the door to the lab.

Bear in mind, of course, that the only reason the Machine didn't just project the monster right into the lab was because it was basing its actions on its own flawed understanding of what its "user" was requesting. Morbius' boosted intelligence wasn't strong enough to send clear commands (like a Krell would), so the machine was picking up "static-filled transmissions", so to speak, and doing its best to provide actions that seemed to fit Morbius' desires.

Since the Krell were so convinced that every single one of its citizens were part of a race Morbius described as "all but divine", they failed to put any safeguards whatsoever on the machine!

That's the tragic premise of this great movie.

If we keep that important thought in mind, where forced to assume that if a Krell individual had commanded the machine to blow itself up, it just might have obeyed! Shocked

If that sounds ridiculous, think of it this way. Who makes sure that God doesn't do something detrimental to the universe?

The answer, of course, is . . . nobody. The buck stops with Him, you might say.

Here's how Cyril Hume described the Krell in the script.



That was revised a bit for the movie, but as I mentioned, Morbius refers to them as " . . . this all but divine race".

My point, of course, is the Krell gave the machine absolute power because they considered themselves incapable of commanding it to do anything harmful.

Big mistake, eh? Confused

But just to keep this enjoyable "pondering" going, are we supposed to assume that Robby's complete meltdown when ordered by Morbius to "stop it Robby! Don't let it in, kill it!" that it means Adams was right when he replied, "It's no used, Morbius. He knows it's you other self."

Good lord. Did Robby somehow know the Id monster was linked to Morbius and the only way to stop it would be to kill the man? Intriguing thought, ain't it? Cyril Hume's script doesn't include Adams' second sentence, he just says, "It's no use".

But I've always wondered why Robby acted sort of secretive when he detected the Id monster approaching the ship while Cookie was guzzling down whisky, and he says, "What's the matter? Somebody coming this way?"

Robby's suggestive reply is, "No, sir. Nothing coming THIS way . . . "

Suspicious, huh?

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Maurice
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thinking is that if there were many labs like that, then that doesn't make it part of the machine proper, just part of the support system for same.

I mean, would the Krell design be so foolishly inept as to allow someone to think, "Open the reactors" and POOF! there goes the whole thing? Engineers design things with failsafes. I'd bet the machine can only project energy OUT and not IN.

IMO. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

First of all, a few simple facts to consider.

Morbius only had access to the Krell machine through the door in the tunnel a few yards from his house. It was on the same level as his house.

The upper level of the Krell machine seemed to be on the same level as the lab. The shuttle car appeared to go straight ahead when it began moving.

However, it occurs to me that it must have dropped to a lower level after the scene in the shuttle car faded out, because the next scene shows the men walking out onto a bridge which, when the men looked both up and down, showed a tremendous distance in both directions.




So, even though I've always thought the lab was on the top level of the machine proper, obviously it could have been miles away and much further underground, and the shuttle car traveled to and from it.


Quote:
My thinking is that if there were many labs like that, then that doesn't make it part of the machine proper, just part of the support system for same.

I concede, sir, that the lab we see (and any others that Morbius discovered and studied by using the shuttle car system) might have been separated by many miles from the Krell machine.

I never considered that, Maurice. Good thinking. Cool

However, on the subject of your other statements, you're giving the Krell way too much credit for installing safeguards on the Krell machine. The movie makes it obvious that in that respect, the Krell weren't nearly as smart as they thought they were! Sad

The Krell foolishly provided no safeguards at all on the machine's abilities. Otherwise it wouldn't have blindly obeyed the savage subconscious "commands" of the Krell id's when it was first activated!

The only way the premise of this movie makes any sense at all is to accept the astounding notion that the brilliant Krell designed, built, and activated a machine that every Krell brain on the planet could make instant use of . . . without the builders ever testing it at a lower power level, or trying it on a small group of test subjects! Shocked

That fact alone makes the Krell look like the dumbest morons in the galaxy!

For human beings, your statement below would be inarguable.


Quote:
I mean, would the Krell design be so foolishly inept as to allow someone to think, "Open the reactors" and POOF! there goes the whole thing? Engineers design things with failsafes. I'd bet the machine can only project energy OUT and not IN.

Right, of course . . . except that the poor Krell obviously were every bit as foolish as your statement describes! The design of the machine allowed any Krell to think (subconsciously) "I hate the individual who insulted me!" — and said individual was instantly killed.

Maurice, we can't set any limits on just how badly the Krell screwed up. The plain fact of the matter is, it never occurred to them that a single member of their race would think, "Open the reactors" . . . or anything else that wasn't totally logical and benevolent! A race that considered itself to be "all but divine" would NEVER do things like that!

That's like saying, "Don't let Jesus get his hands on a computer! He might start watching porno!" Shocked

The problem, of course, is that the Krell were NOT "all but divine".

And finally, there's this to consider.

If the Krell machine wanted to murder two little humans who were running around deep inside the machine, what makes you assume it couldn't accomplish that simple task without doing any damage to the machine itself? Confused

After all, it managed to kill chief Quinn by doing what Farman described this way. "Skipper, his body is plastered all over the communications room!"

But it did this without doing any harm to the ship.

So, I just don't see why you think the machine would have been reluctant to kill Adams and Altaira if they were down inside the machine. If would just rip them to pieces and then clean up the mess.
Sad
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my thinking "mistake" ≠ "stupidity". Programmers and engineers build all kind of failsafes into their creations but are often undone by the one they didn't think about. The Krell were probably so convinced of their mental superiority—that they had become the Krellian Übermench—that they didn't even consider what we would call the "reptile brain" could do what it did. My feeling is they built all kinds of safeguards into the thing but were undone by the one thing they took for granted: their being an "almost divine race". That's actually more Shakespearean tragedy than the alternative you are suggesting.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Krell weren't stupid, they were complacent and naive. After centuries of shinning sanity and peace, who wouldn't be. After such a period of time, they couldn't conceive otherwise. Why would they think, how could they concieve that they would be subject to the insanity's of the past after so long a period without them.

I have always thought that the labs were spread out through the machine. I also think that there were other points of entry into the machine for maintenance and resupply, a leftover from the construction. Although if the machine could make anything, then it probably had the ability to materialize it's own replacement parts.

David.
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