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Forbidden Planet (1956)
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
The fact that the gauges registered power usage when the animals were active doesn't prove they were real . . . it proves they were creations of the machine.

But didn't Morbius also say in the same scene that the C-57-D caused "almost an entire gauge" to light up on its approach?
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larryfoster
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
Bud Brewster wrote:
The fact that the gauges registered power usage when the animals were active doesn't prove they were real . . . it proves they were creations of the machine.

But didn't Morbius also say in the same scene that the C-57-D caused "almost an entire gauge" to light up on its approach?

Yes, he did. Sorry I truncated his full statement. Here it is, in full.

"Sometimes the gauges register a little... when the buck deer fight in the autumn or when birds fly over in the spring... and nearly a whole dial became active... when your ship first approached from deep space."

By Buds reasoning... the Krell machine must have also created the C-57-D and crew. Wink

Actually, I believe the machine can sense/measure pre-existing objects (the deer, the C-57-D), as well as create new objects. Example... I have an electrical power supply device that can provide power to something. But with only a flip of a switch, it will display 'existing' power 'from' the device. I think the same function of the Krell machine. If a volcano erupted on Altair-4 due to natural causes... the machine could display the volcano energy released. It would not have to create an artificial volcano, just to provide its energy release information.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

larryfoster wrote:
I can't imagine what vehicle you are referring to. I guess I 'm just not fond of 'wheeled' vehicles. I like 'tracked' vehicles, because they look tough.

I'm also not aware of any vehicle with that type of wheel arangement, so it must not have been a very successful design in practice. But back when FP was made, it was cutting-edge, vehicle-of-the-future design.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say that I'm really enjoying this discussion! Very Happy

But if I get too carried away, I hope I won't say something that offends anyone. I just love debating ideas, and this discussion is ripe for debatin', guys! Very Happy

That said, here goes nuttin'.
_____________________________________________

Larry, one of your main arguments for the idea that the animals are real is your statement about how the gauges register when the birds migrate and the bucks fight. However, there is nothing in the movie that suggests the machine uses the gauges to monitor energy usage from other sources at other locations. The machine was not constructed to measure the energy of flying birds, fighting deer, spaceships approaching Altair 4, and certainly not from erupting volcanoes.

In fact, the movie gives a lecture on the gauges when Morbius shows us that they indicate the energy the machine uses — not the energy the machine detects from other sources. Consider Morbius' demonstration in the Krell lab: he shows Adams and Ostrow that the lowest gauge indicates that the display screen is using a small amount of energy. When he activates the plastic educator, the gauge shows the energy consumption go up just a tad.





It's important for us to understand that these gauges do not display the level of energy the machine detected these devices receiving from some other source — they're displaying the level of energy the machine itself is providing for these devices.

Hell's bells, they wouldn't be very good power gauges if they tried to do both would they? You'd never know if they were measuring the power being used by the display screen in the lab or by a couple of rutting bucks butting heads in the meadow nearby! Very Happy

I'm afraid you've misinterpreted the comments made my Morbius, making them fit your belief that the animals are real and the machine somehow senses the energy they use when they move around.

Actually, there is one living creature the machine keeps close tabs on: Morbius. That's a very important point.

Here's why.

Originally, the machine was designed and constructed to be attentive to the thoughts of the Krell, and to use its vast power source to convert energy into matter at the request of the Krell's mental commands. Two thousand centuries after the Krell ceased to exist, Morbius suddenly became the soul focus of the machine's attention when his brain power was boosted by the Krell educator.

After 200,000 lonely years, the machine found itself back in business — but with only one customer to serve.

So, since the machine does not detect the usage of energy created by another source, what did cause the gauges to register when the birds flew around and the deer got horny and the C-57-D came a callin' on Morbius and his lovely daughter?

What is the common factor in all three examples?

The answer is obvious, guys. The common factor is Morbius. Dear old Mother Machine is keeping a close eye on her only son, little Eddie. Anything he wants — anything at all — Momma will give him.

Unfortunately for Mother Machine, Eddie is a "low grade moron" (according to the Krell I.Q. indicator), so Mom has trouble understanding just exactly what her precious Edward is asking for.

This is the heart and soul of Forbidden Planet's basic concept: a super-powerful machine, constructed by super-intelligent beings, is trying to understand the foggy thoughts of an inferior creature whose brain is barely strong enough to send mental requests that can activate the machine's amazing abilities.

"Creation by mere thought" is how Adams described it — and he was speaking for the screenplay's writer, Cyril Hume, the "God" of this fictional universe, whose word is law to us mere mortals.

All we're debating about is what Cyril Hume really intended. I'm just trying to use all the clues he provided, so that I can correctly understand what he meant to say.

So, without reading our own preferences into the data (mine or yours Very Happy ), what are the clues we can use to figure out if the animals are real or fabricated? Let's go back to basics and consider the facts we all agree on.

1. The machine can create any physical object and cause it to appear anywhere on the planet.

2. The machine has a vast power supply to use for this purpose.

3. The gauges in the Krell lab display the power being used by the machine when any of its related components (like those in the lab) are in use — or whenever the machine is creating something out of pure energy.

4. The machine was designed to obey the mental commands of Krell brains who sent it requests for objects to be created.

5. Since the Krell no longer exist, Morbius' brain is the only source of mental commands the machine can detect — but his conscious mind isn't strong enough to fully activate the machine's abilities.

6. However, Morbius' subconscious is strong enough, even though his subconscious thoughts aren't clearly discernible by the machine as specific commands.

In other words, Morbius can NOT consciously command the machine to make monkeys, deer, birds, and tigers. But his subconscious hopes and fears are translated by the machine as important needs that can be fulfilled by objects the machine can create, based on the mental images and strong emotional concerns it receives from Morbius' subconscious mind.

Just to clarify, Morbius' mind is not saying, "Machine, make a tiger." He's just very troubled by a problem that concerns his daughter, and the problem surfaces in his dreams. The problem can be verbalized this way:

"I'm worried about my daughter. The poor girl has no one to play with. Too bad she doesn't have a few pets."

The machine detected this concern, and it responded. It understood enough to realize that friendly animals were needed — and it worked out the details. It's smart enough to do that.

Ditto for the Id monster. When Morbius had a problem on his mind, it affected his dreams. One such problem might be expressed this way.

"Those damn Earthlings are screwing up my life! I wish they'd go away!"

The machine devised a response. In this case, the response ended up looking like this guy.



We know this is how the machine worked, because we see this clearly in the story. For example, we're shown a visible indication whenever the machine is in use: the power gauges. And they provide us with clues that relate to the question of whether the animals are real or not.

The movie includes two spectacular examples of this. Whenever the Id monster is being created, we see the power gauges showing us the colossal amount of energy being used to maintain that ghastly creature's existence.

Picture the scene in which Morbius is asleep in the lab, and his troubled mind begins to dwell on the problem caused by the arrival of the C-57-D. He hates their inference with his work, and he doesn't want his daughter to leave with them when they returned home.

The machine detects his deep concern and begins to deal with it the same way it did when the Bellerophon crew voted to returned to Earth. So, what does it do?

It takes action to get rid of the problem.



But the moment Altaira's scream awakens him, the subconscious "request" to get rid of the men from Earth is no longer being sent to the machine, so the Id monster fades from existence — and the power gauges reflect the reduction in the energy being used.









As I said earlier, the common factor during the times when the gauges become active is Morbius himself. We can clearly see that the gauges register power usage when the Id monster is active.

So, wouldn't that mean the same thing would be true whenever the machine-created animals are active as well?

If I were to write a blues song to describe this situation, it would go like this:

Them dials don't light up 'cause the birds fly!
Them birds fly because the dials light up!
Cool

Therefore, I repeat my earlier assertion: the fact that the gauges are active when the birds migrate and the buck deer fight is proof that these animals are created by the machine — just like the Id monster.

But why did a whole dial become active when the C-57-D approached the planet? You hinged your counter-argument on that point, Larry, so it's up to me to come up with a good explanation, by gum!

Otherwise I might lose this debate. Shocked

We've already established that the gauges are designed to register energy being produced and used by the machine — not to detect the energy being produced and used somewhere else. (The electric meter at my house becomes active when I turn my television on, not when my neighbor turns on his. Very Happy )

So, why was the machine suddenly using power in response to the approach of the C-57-D?

Gosh, fellas, don't look now, but Chief Quinn actually told us the answer to that one! Shocked



Quinn: Sir, we're being radar scanned!

Adams: Can you get a fix on it?

Quinn: No, sir, but it seems to emanate from an area about twenty miles square.


Well, I'll be damned. Mystery solved, just like that.

When Morbius said, " . . . nearly a whole dial became active when your ship first approached from deep space," he was referring to the fact that the machine was using energy to scan the ship!

(Damn, that was too easy . . . Cool )

So, there you have it, guys. I think I've clearly shown that the gauges reflect energy usage by the machine when it performs various functions — including the creation of an Id monster to deal with Morbius' problems, and the creation of playful pets to entertain his daughter.

Doesn't that make a lot more sense than saying the machine uses energy to spy on birds and deer and volcanoes? Wink

It also accounts for the existence of the fuzzy critters in a manner more logical and consistent with the story than saying these animals were just the hardy ancestors of ancient specimens brought back from a time "long before the dawn of man's history" — especially in view of the fact that the movie never says a word about how they got to the Morbius home.

But it does say all the things I've mentioned to show us that they weren't real.

It's just good story telling that way. Consistent, logical, imaginative, and original.

As I stated earlier, the artificially created animals are an important example of what the machine can do. The story loses an entire level of it's complexity if we miss the fact that the Krell machine is doing so much more than just dismembering people.

If I were writing the story, I'd want it to be about more than just that. And apparently you do too, Larry! In an earlier post, you suggested this:


Larryfoster wrote:
We have learned one secret of the great mysterious Krell machine. But, we may not have learned all there is to know of its functions. It can create real objects from individual mental thoughts. But it may possibly also... create from its own artificial intelligence creations - owing to an occasional glitch in its ancient programming.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying the machine might be able to create intelligent creatures as well, right?

I like the concept, but I like the irony even better: you resist the idea that the Krell machine created Altaira's pets because her father wanted her to be happy — and yet you suggest that the machine might also be able to whistle up it's own intelligent creatures with no help from anybody!

But it's a fantastic concept for a sequel. Really! The machine stops the explosion of the reactors, then it simulates the blast we see at the end of the movie (to fool the departing humans).

Afterwards, it uses it's newly acquired self-awareness and its energy-to-matter abilities to re-create living Krell who don't know they are just fabrications of the real thing, made by the machine they themselves invented!

Wow!

And what the hell — while we're at it, let's allow the machine to repair Morbius' injuries and bring him back to life after the ship has left!

I'm actually serious about this. I love the concept! Let's talk about that now, okay?

But first . . . admit it, Larry. Those damn critters are fakes! Laughing

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larryfoster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok . . . I concede. You got me on the 'radar scanning' of the approaching C-57-D. I had forgotten about that, as being an energy 'expenditure'.
Quote:
But first . . . admit it, Larry. Those damn critters are fakes!

Ok, Ok! Altaira's critters were machine-created fakes. But the real descendant Earth animals are still roaming wild, in the Altair-4 forests, on the other side of the planet - unless you have an Altair-4 planet-map... showing the 'entire planet' as barren desert. Shocked Wink

BTW . . . your use of the Krell Machine to intervene in the chain-reaction destruction for a sequel is interesting. I was going to suggest that the plunger/switch in the Krell Lab floor was not really a 'self-destruct' switch. But was actually a 'planet-defense' switch which would project the holographic illusion of the planet going nova.

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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very convincing, young man... But if that explanation holds true, then we probably need to say that Morbius, artificially expanded intellect and all, missed the significance of the gauges lighting up when the birds flew over and the buck deer fought. He appears to have thought they also monitored external energy expenditure.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes indeed, Wayne, the story relies heavily on the idea that Morbius didn't figure out what the rest of us now know — after a mere 58 years of intense concentration on our part. Very Happy

Story-wise, however, Forbidden Planet has all it's ducks in a row and can't be faulted in very many ways. Remember, the movie only had 90+ minutes to give us a lot to think about for the next half-century, so Doc's brief comment just before he died —

"Morbius was too close to the problem . . . "

— is supposed to forgive Morbius for not solving the big mystery. And since this is the Gospel accord to St. Cyril Hume (the screen writer), I never question His divine word in these matters. Very Happy

In other words, if Cyril rose from the grave and said to me, "Bud, you're wrong. The animals are real," I'd just shoot myself repeatedly with rubber bullets until I expired from bruising and internal bleeding. Sad

And if Larry chooses to reject my assertion that the animals are machine creations, he could counter with the argument that the active gauges simply indicated the use of energy being expended by the machine's "sensors" to observe the movement of the animals — just like it scanned the approach of the C-57-D!

After all, the gauges do, in fact, light up whenever power was being used for any reason, and the movie includes a scene at the beginning in which we're told the machine is scanning the C-57-D while it's in orbit. Obviously the machine would have to possess vast arrays of sensors to allow it to "project solid matter to any point on the planet" without ever putting said matter in the wrong spot and exploding some poor Krell's head from the inside!

So, I'm sure the machine was constantly aware of everything happening on every square inch of Altair 4 — and in orbit around it, for that matter.

This means I have to retract the cracks I made yesterday about the Krell machine spying on birds and deer and volcanoes! The machine actually did spy on everything, as part of it's constant readiness to send the requested "solid matter" to it's Krell masters at a moments notice without making it appear inside walls, or a mile above the recipients.

However, I still feel confident that what Cyril had in mind all along was that the animals were not natural, they were "machine made" (so to speak).

In fact, I think the Krell machine was a busy little beaver throughout the whole twenty years Morbius lived on Altair 4, even though Morbius didn't know it.

The machine was diligently listening to Morbius' murky subconscious thoughts and doing it's best to create things it decided Morbius wanted. The machine may have modified the weather, or kept the plants healthy, or kept the pool filled with clean water, or any number of subtle things that Morbius didn't realize were being done for him and Altaira.

After all, their home is quite a pleasant little oasis in the middle of the stark Altair 4 terrain. Desert homes like this in Utah and Arizona rely on the public water supply to keep their swimming pools topped off and their expensive landscaping watered. But the Morbius home seems to be doing just fine without the aid of public utilities and illegal Mexican gardeners. Cool

I mean, this place looks like Las Vegas, smack in the middle of Nevada!



Of course, nothing the machine made ever just appeared out of thin air, even the Id monster. The animals were the most obvious thing the machine made, and Morbius couldn't quite figure out where they came from. But he didn't want to admit this to John Adams, so he declined to comment when John made the obvious assumption about the animals after Morbius said the Krell were fond of bringing home souvenirs when they vacationed on other planets.






Meanwhile, Morbius spent two decades brilliantly analyzing the Krell database and deciphering an amazing amount of data, knowing that someday he would begin to dole it out carefully to the human race and revolutionize human civilization in the process.

Edward Morbius was a man with a plan. A damn good plan, too.

But he missed the big, invisible elephant in the room — the fact that the Krell spent thousands of years developing a giant machine that would allow them to simply want it . . . wish for it . . . and have it.

For the Krell, Every day is Christmas just wasn't good enough. They wanted every second to be Christmas!

On a related note, Wayne, I have to disagree with the last sentence in this statement.


Wayne wrote:
. . . we probably need to say that Morbius, artificially expanded intellect and all, missed the significance of the gauges lighting up when the birds flew over and the buck deer fought. He appears to have thought they also monitored external energy expenditure.

Reiterating what I said in my earlier post, there's nothing in the movie to suggest that Morbius thought the gauges displayed the detection of power being created somewhere else. Morbius knew the gauges lit up when power was being used by the machine — but he didn't know what the power was being used for when the active gauges coincided with the seasonal activities of the birds and deer.

You're right, of course, in saying he didn't realize the gauges were lighting up because the machine was creating the flocks of birds and the herds of deer.

On the other hand, there's no question that Morbius definitely did know why a dial lit up when the ship first approached the planet. After all, his call to the ship was received a few seconds after the C-57-D was scanned. And his first words were —

"Spaceship, identify yourself. You're being tracked."

Quinn had just informed the captain that the radar scan he detected emanated from an area twenty miles square. So the tracking Morbius refers to was done by the Krell machine — and the machine had somehow alerted Morbius that a spacecraft was in orbit!

Frankly, I never made this obvious connection before. I just thought the machine had done its own secret scan right before Morbius just happened to call the ship.

But no — silly me, I should have put 2 and 2 and 2 together and gotten a solid 6! The ship was scanned by the machine, and Morbius immediately called to tell them they were being tracked. Later in the story, during the grand tour of the Krell machine, Morbius tells Adams that "nearly a whole dial became active" when the ship had approached from space.

Obvious conclusion: Morbius was working in the lab when he saw the dial light up, and somehow Morbius knew that the machine was tracking an approaching ship.

Just how the machine did this is certainly a subject for serious discussion.

Knowing this, we now see that when Morbius deflected John's question — "What's it all for?" — by commenting on the occasional activity of the power gauges, he wasn't saying he didn't know why the gauges lit up from time to time, he was just avoiding the embarrassing question about the true nature of the machine, because he didn't know the answer!

We should also consider the fact that the script by Cyril Hume contains additional dialog in that scene.

The Cinefantastique article provides an except from the script which shows that after Morbius fails to answer John's question, John presses the point by repeating it. The script includes stage directions which tells us about how Morbius behaves in this situation.

This is how that portion of the script reads in the article.
______________________________

_______________Adams_______________

"What's it all for"?

_______________Morbius_______________
____________(oddly evasive)_______________

"Sometimes the gauges register a little when the buck deer fight in the autumn and the birds fly over in the spring. And nearly a whole dial became active when your ship first approached from deep space."

_______________Adams_______________

"Dr. Morbius, I asked you — What's it all for?"

Morbius stands gripping the railing, staring down into the abyss.

_______________Morbius_______________
_________(haunted and haggard)_______________

"I don't know! In twenty years I have been able to form no conception at all."

______________________________

Later in the Cinefantastique article, the scene is discussed again, but this time the dialog is taken directly from the work print which Louis and Bebe Baron discovered, years after the movie's release.

Here's what it says on page 62 of the article, in the center column (just in case you have your own copy. Very Happy)
______________________________

As the group is about to head back towards the tube car to leave, Adams repeats the question Morbius had failed to answer only moments before.

"But Dr. Morbius, I asked you, what's it all for"?

This time Morbius replies, "After twenty years of unremitting labor, I have found no answer to that awful question."

_____________________________

Frankly I'm glad they rewrote Morbius' line, because the one shown from the script excerpt above kinda sucks. Very Happy

But either way, it shows us that Cyril Hume intended for Morbius to be a troubled man, wrestling with all those unanswered questions that haunted him — like the basic purpose of the machine, the mystery of the "planetary force" that killed the Bellerophon crew, the unexplained existence of the animals, the extinction of the Krell, and the "final project" the Krell expected to rid them of the need for "physical instrumentalities" (tools, machines, etc.)

If I seem obsessed with the idea that the animals were created by the Krell machine, it's because I feel it's so important to the plot. I'm convinced that the creation of the Id monster was just one way the machine demonstrated it's ability to create solid matter on demand. I think the animals and many other things were created by the machine — but the movie didn't provide us with clues concerning other examples, so that's pure speculation on my part.

But I think I've settled the question of where the animals came from. It's taken me quite a while to get all the facts needed to prove my case, but I'm confident now that I'm right.

_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've sold me, at least until some better explanation comes along. Very Happy Wink

It would seem to fall out, then, that the machine could create low energy manifestations from Morbius' subconscious while he was awake, but a big energy hawg like the monster required him being asleep. Or rather he could only drum up such a creation while his subconscious was in total control.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

orzel-w wrote:
It would seem to fall out, then, that the machine could create low energy manifestations from Morbius' subconscious while he was awake.

Uh, I'm pretty sure the one that tried to break into the lab at the end was no "low energy manifestation".

Actually, the machine's creations aren't affected by the state of mind of the human, the way you described it.

The amount of power used was not dependent on, or determined by, Morbius' brain or his waking/sleeping state. The machine just read his thoughts, and IF it understood what he seemed to want (remember, he was a low-grade moron by Krell standers, according to Morbius himself), the Machine would produce something in response to his "request".

What Adams said was, "Consciously you still lacked the power to operate the big machine — but your subconscious had been made strong enough."

The problem was that the machine had trouble understanding what Morbius wanted, because his brain was so inferior to those of the Krell.

But once it understood that he was upset with the Bellerophon crew (and later the C-57-D crew), it sent the Id monster out to bump 'em off for him.

Once the machine determined what it should "make", it was able to use all the power at it's disposal to accomplish it's goal. That's what John tells Morbius at the end, when the Id monster is trying to break into the lab.

I think the reason the Id monster showed up at the end, even though Morbius was awake, is because he was so upset by the knowledge that his daughter was leaving with Adams, and Adams was making him realize that he was the catalyst which caused the Id monster to kill its victims.

His emotions were so strong in that situation that the machine was able to understand what he "wanted": to strike back at John and Altaira for angering him.

It was all just a great big misunderstanding. Sad situation, yes indeed.
Sad
_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larry, you da' man!

I sat down at my computer this morning with a big cup of coffee and started looking over my first post about Altaira's pets just to be sure I hadn't done something really stupid, like type a common word like "shirt" and leave out the R — you know, embarrassing things like that. (blush)

But as I started reading it, I was shocked by the smart-ass tone it had! When I wrote it, I was imagining it in a jokey, friendly voice — but when I read it back I just wanted to reach out and slap myself for being such a wisenheimer.

My apologies for that. I love to write, but I miss the absence of hand gestures, facial expressions, and body language to punctuate the message and illustrate my charming, friendly nature. Very Happy

I shall seek forgiveness for this sin by saying 10 Hail Caesars and 10 Our Gang Comedies. That should do it, I think.

Now, on to business.


larryfoster wrote:
. . . the real descendant Earth animals are still roaming wild, in the Altair-4 forests, on the other side of the planet - unless you have an Altair-4 planet-map... showing the 'entire planet' as barren desert. Shocked Wink

Oh, hell yes! A desert-wide planet is all well-and-good for Luke Skywalker, but planets that support human life in the middle latitudes would have the full range of climates and habitats between the polar ice caps.

Unless that handy little helper, the Krell machine, was maintaining that one area of Altair 4 as the perfect vacation resort for the Morbius family, the planet ought to have all the oceans and forests and lakes and rivers we'd need to postulate one helluva wild ecosystem comprised of life forms from all over this region of the galaxy.

The late, lamented original All Sci-Fi (sigh Sad ) had a wonderful discussion between me and bongopete on this subject, and we agreed that the story possibilities for such a region were pretty darned exciting.

For example, when the Bellerophon first arrived at Altair 4, the crew might have discover a large area in which a variety of organisms from various planets had established a stable ecosystem over the millennium, despite the fact that these creatures originally evolved on dozens of different planets.

Naturally the Krell specimens that could not survive "in the wild" on Altair 4 would have died out after the hordes of Id monsters ran amok and killed off the Krell. But the creatures that had been placed in open zoo-like habitats by the Krell eventually escaped (since all the zookeepers got ripped up by those nasty Id monsters), and these creatures started mixin' and minglin' and makin' new friends and eatin' the ones they couldn't get along with.

Some species would become extinct, others would come close to overrunning the environment, but if things eventually evened out (as things often do in nature), then I think it might end up looking something like this.





If we conduct this mental exercise by the rules, Larry, we'll have to use the appearance of Altair 4 as shown in the movie and in the test shots available in the special features of the DVD/BD, like these.











I hate to say it, but the makers of Forbidden Planet didn't seem to make Altair 4 look as if the had the large green areas and big oceans we need, anywhere on it!

Our beloved Altair 4 — which looks so gorgeous on the ground in the area near the Morbius home — is as plain as my cousin Patty back when she was 13. Uncle Nat and Aunt Bebe wouldn't let her read romance novels because they didn't want her to get false hopes. A sad situation . . .

We're going to need an innovative solution to this problem to make the story I got in mind work.

The one I came up with in the thread with bongopete back on the old All Sci-Fi (sigh . . . Sad ) involved the Bellerophon scientist being puzzled by the fact that the life forms they examined didn't conform to the theory of evolution because they had such wildly different types of DNA. The old "descended from a common ancestor" idea clearly didn't work.

But what really threw these learned folks into a tailspin was the discovery of Earth animals running around here and there!

Of course, somebody in the group figures out that many of these life forms — like the monkeys, tigers, and deer — were specimens brought to Altair 4 from other planets. And this starts the search for any remnants of the intelligent creatures that brought the specimens.

Somewhere along the way they discover the entrance to the Krell complex, and the rest is history.

Hey . . . wait a minute. That gives me an idea.

Since the space shots of Altair 4 don't give us a lick of wiggle room in terms of making any part of Altaira 4 be remotely like Earth —



— what if we put the Krell Super Zoo in a gigantic underground complex, with all the different environmental conditions artificially maintained in huge rooms that recreated the home worlds of the various creatures, as if they were outside in their natural habitats, with holographic skies and the illusion of distant horizons. They would represent a record of the worlds the Krell had visited, preserved in these recreations!

Yeah, yeah, I know — this is a very different idea than the region-gone-wild, with the intermingled life forms co-existing. But it has it's own kind of appeal if we're willing to give up the former wild region concept. The underground facility would offer a way to "visit" hundreds of alien worlds — a treasure trove of knowledge just as wondrous as the Krell database Morbius was studying.

The facility could be entirely self-serviced and self-maintained, just like the Krell machine. All the Krell who were in the facility on the Day of the Id Monsters were killed, just like the ones in other areas of the planet. The alien life forms were spared (mostly) because the Id monsters only did whatever they did to other Krell (for reasons I've never fully understood, but never mind that, eh?)

Anyway, Larry, now we've got the makin's of a Forbidden Planet prequel and a sequel.

I wish some brilliant filmmaker would have the nerve to do both movies in a manner that perfectly matched the original in every respect. Something like that might seem like just a nostalgia trip to folks who think Forbidden Planet looks ancient and obsolete — but I suspect the films would have a remarkably novel look and flavor if they were done to match Forbidden Planet, using modern FX techniques to create the same kind of beauty the original presented "the hard way". I think they would attract younger viewers because these movies gave them something "new" — the way Avatar did.

What do you think?



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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
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larryfoster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds good to me, Bud. If there was/are 'real' Earth animals anywhere on Altair-4 (even if in huge underground bio-spheres)... then it means the Krell DID visit Earth in the past - as Morbius said. That means the Krell were interstellar travelers, and could have created colony outpost in other star systems - yet to be found by humans.

As for a sequel... set it 50 years after Forbidden Planet time, to allow upgrading C-57-D to C-57-E or -F. One of a fleet of 99 similar cruisers. A saucer about 1/3 or 1/2 larger than the original. Replace old landing pedestal with hydraulic legs. And replace ship's internal 'hyperdrive' with a detachable 'warp-drive' ring (like the Star Wars "hyperspace docking ring") - to comply with NASA warp drive 'ring' concept. Upgrade the ship interior to Star Trek TOS components. Replace old Tractor with BSG Landram vehicle. Double the crew numbers. Ship Captain would be grandson of John Adams. New ship crew should be 1/2 female, wearing ST TOS uniforms (w/ United Planets logo), using tricorders, phasers, etc. No aliens in the crew! But holographic Rommie A.I. computer, and modern Robby robots are included aboard. Name the saucer: "Enterprise". Smile

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Tired of waiting on NASA to adopt Flying Saucer technology! Sick of human political-representative government! I want 1970: COLOSSUS (The Forbin Project) A.I. - as World Control government! Providing flying saucer tech, "For the betterment of man."


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Krel
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Farman's line about the landing coordinates being "way out there in the desert", would seem to indicate that Altair IV was not all desert. Altair IV is an alien planet, there is no reason it couldn't have other environments while not look like Earth.

David.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Jerry Farman's line about the landing coordinates being "way out there in the desert", would seem to indicate that Altair IV was not all desert. Altair IV is an alien planet, there is no reason it couldn't have other environments while not look like Earth.

David.

Actually, Jerry's line is "It's right back there in the desert," meaning they had just gone past the spot, I guess.

However, you're right, the other environments can be very different and not look like Earth -- but if these environments don't have what the Earth animals need, they can't live there. And what they need is edible vegetation and fresh water -- which tends to give the land a lovely green and blue motif, regardless of what planet it's on. Very Happy

I wish I could believe that the other hemisphere was all green and watery, but it sure doesn't look that way on the side we can see.

I mean, sure, it looks nice and blue during the initial approach --



-- but when they make their close orbit we see an awful lot of pale landscape down there. I'm not seeing anything that resembles a small sea, much less an ocean. And during these scenes, the ship is moving pretty fast and we see more of the surface than we would in the kind of shots we've seen from the space shuttle.








.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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Eadie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on this is that if Larry Foster can have Colossus, why can't the Krell, being "a million years" ahead of us have a better super-Colossus?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often wondered why the Krell didn't have any "safety protocols" on that big wish-granting machine of theirs to prevent folks from hurting each other.

The Star Trek holodecks have safety protocols, and they're basically the same thing as the Krell machine.

Does that mean we're smarter than the Krell?

Does that mean our holodecks are better than their big machine?

Does that mean our Colossus could beat up their whatever-they-called-it?

Larry might say yes.
Very Happy
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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