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Forbidden Planet (1956)
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larryfoster
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this Morbius statement explains why the Krell machine was lacking in 'safety protocols'.

"After a million years of shining sanity... they could hardly have understood what power was destroying them."

After many years of 'no problems'... designers become laxed about including safety features.

And I'm content that 'my Colossus' is superior to the Star Trek's "Star Fleet Ruling Counsel". At the distance of Altair-4, the C-57-D would be on its own. Wink
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

larryfoster wrote:
"After a million years of shining sanity... they could hardly have understood what power was destroying them."

After many years of 'no problems'... designers become lax about including safety features.


Yep, that's the key to Forbidden Planet's tragic tale. The Krell thought they didn't have anything nasty going on, deep down in their subconscious.

Oops. Wrong.

Great movie. Very Happy
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, here's the real-world problem with the Krell machine making tigers and bucks and birds (oh my):

It's reading from Morbius's memory. If I asked the average person to draw out the details of a common housecat there would be details that were wrong. The proportions, the number of teeth, the way the claws work... now apply that to a tiger. How many stripes? What's the exact pattern and fur length in various spots. And deer... what do the antlers look like?

If the machine is making these things from Morbius's thoughts the creatures should look weirdly wrong to at least some others.

This is always the fault with "created from memory" stories, because the only persons it would like fool are those whose memories were tapped.

As to Altair IV, in the finished film we don't see the full globe, but the Lost Footage section of the DVD shows more of it. This footage probably wasn't color timed, but that featureless pale area sure looks like a body of water, especially in the 2nd pic.





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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
This is always the fault with "created from memory" stories, because the only persons it would like fool are those whose memories were tapped.

I found this to be a major shortcoming of the Green Lantern movie. The ring would materialize whatever the wearer could conjure up in detail. Hal Jordan, a test pilot, supposedly knew the latest jet fighter inside and out, so he was able to use the ring to materialize one (for travel in airless space, no less). Yeah, right.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
So, here's the real-world problem with the Krell machine making tigers and bucks and birds (oh my):

It's reading from Morbius's memory. If I asked the average person to draw out the details of a common housecat there would be details that were wrong. The proportions, the number of teeth, the way the claws work... now apply that to a tiger. How many stripes? What's the exact pattern and fur length in various spots. And deer... what do the antlers look like?

If the machine is making these things from Morbius's thoughts the creatures should look weirdly wrong to at least some others.

Nice thought. Let's explore it.

The filmmakers in 1956 had the foresight to realize that information would be stored on computers -- so the Krell's vast knowledge ("surpassing many million Earthly libraries") was in their database, the one that Morbius studied for twenty years.

Morbius would have his own computer with a vast database of mankind's knowledge (any group of scientist on an interstellar space mission naturally would have this), even though the movie never showed us Morbius' computer.

Morbius was "home schooling" Altaira, because the nearest school bus stop was sixteen light years away.

So, both Morbius and his daughter would frequently watch educational videos -- many of which would show all the animals we see in Forbidden Planet -- and many more.

And all the while the Krell machine was tapping into Morbius brain activity, gathering info, building a database about all aspects of Earth. Remember, it was designed to serve the wants of the Krell users, so it would store info about a users "preferences" -- just like the computer your looking at right now!

But if you don't care for that theory, here's an even better one.

The Krell had brought back specimens from Earth and studied them. And was all that knowledge of Earth organisms stored?

The Krell database!

So, Morbius could have actually have pulled up pictures of tigers and bucks and birds (oh my) right on the Krell monitor in his lab. And if he subconsciously "wished" for his daughter to have some friendly pets to keep her company, the machine would have enough data to create them -- right down to their DNA.

You said the tiger might not have the right number of strips? Hells bells, Maurice, the machine could have made that tiger with the right number of chromosomes! Very Happy

But of course, the strongest reason for having the animals be machine creations, inspired by Morbius'love for his daughter and his concern for her happiness, is that this important plot element deepens the story considerably.

As I mentioned earlier, if all the machine is doing is making a big scary monster that rips people apart, the story is considerably less interesting. The machine made animals idea establishes Morbius as a good man and caring father, and it shows that the machine's true intended purpose was to make people happy -- not to make them dead and dismembered.

Confession: I had already thought of most of what I described above, but your fine comment inspired me to add some interesting refinements to it -- and I really enjoyed doing it. Very Happy

And yes, by gum, there DOES seem to be large bodies of water on Altair 4! If you do a bit more color enhancement on the picture you posted to see what's really there --



-- you find large areas that definitely look like water.



Good job, Maurice! Thanks!
Very Happy
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Eadie
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in computer lab class at this moment and Mr. Zahrnedry (the teacher) is a big Forbidden Planet fan. He changed the color on that picture of Altair Iv to look like this.



saying that it looks like a shallow sea with a deep water portion.

I FOUND "M-TV" IN ALTA'S HOUSE!!! (That's 'Morbius'-TV)



It's really a hidden interocitor!



(Oh, well. back to class.)
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to add to the discussion, Bud.

Sure, it's possible Morbius had a computer and database that the Machine could maybe consult, but is a database going to have photographs/scans/small details of an animal, or, is it going to be a broader description?

If the Krell got molecular/genetic samples of some Earthly lifeforms and somehow Morbius found those in their records, I suppose he could have thought those animals into existence and them went, "gosh and they brought them back to Altair IV, too!" But if he had a dream of something not in the database, then what?

It's all fun to think about. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
Sure, it's possible Morbius had a computer and database that the Machine could maybe consult, but is a database going to have photographs/scans/small details of an animal, or, is it going to be a broader description?

You're forgetting that the computers we have today are a hundred years behind what the people in Forbidden Planet would have.

We'd be foolish to limit their capacity in anyway. When I was kid in the 1950s, a computer was a giant machine that filled a room, and it's memory capacity was tiny by today's standards.

And what about the physical size of computer's today? Now they fit in the palm of your hand!


Maurice wrote:
If the Krell got molecular/genetic samples of some Earthly lifeforms and somehow Morbius found those in their records, I suppose he could have thought those animals into existence and them went, "gosh and they brought them back to Altair IV, too!" But if he had a dream of something not in the database, then what?

If the Krell got samples? Really? You're thinkin' that's an "if"?

Again, consider the state of the science we're talking about. The Krell were a million years ahead of the people who were a hundred years ahead of us!

So there's no question that the Krell's interstellar expeditions learned more about Earth's biology (and stored that knowledge in their database) than we'll learn in the next one thousand millennia!

We certainly don't have to worry that Morbius might "dream of something not in the database".

And besides, Morbius isn't deliberately using dreams to create things with the Krell machine. Your comment makes it sound like you think Morbius might "ask" for something the machine can't provide.

Remember, he doesn't even know that his dreams are causing a response in the Krell machine!

Finally, my reference to Morbius being able to look at information the Krell had about Earth animals in their database was just my way of pointing out the irony of of the fact that even if Morbius brought absolutely nothing to Altair 4 the machine could use to make a perfect replica of a tiger -- the machine wouldn't need it anyway!

The Krell were experts on Earth's life forms because (A) they had been there, and (B) they had brought back specimens, and (C) they were super-intelligent beings who had collected vast amounts of knowledge on every subject they could learn about.

Anything at all the Krell database contained, the Krell machine would used to do it's job: create solid matter in "any shape or color, for any purpose."

So, to summarize:

Morbius was a brilliant scientist from an advanced society which undoubtedly came to Altair 4 with all the knowledge he (and his colleagues) could carry, because they were sixteen light years from Earth and couldn't just dash back home if they forgot something.

Therefore, he would have had at his disposal a monumental amount of data on every subject, contained in computers thousands of times more advanced that ours today.

And probably about the size of a wedding ring. Very Happy

Add to this the fact that anything Morbius knows, the machine can know, because it reads minds. That's just part of it's job description.

BUT . . . even if Morbius doesn't know a tiger from a Teddy Bear -- the Krell machine DOES! And it's known it for a million years!

So if Morbius' subconscious mind was mulling over the problem caused by his daughter being lonely and unhappy, and if it occurred to him that a nice pet would help the situation, the machine would crank one out for him.

It's as simple as that, Maurice. All Morbius needed to do was worry about his daughter's happiness and wonder if a pet would help.

The machine would handle the details -- and it's got an abundance of knowledge about Earth animals in that super-duper database to make any animal it chose to create. That's how it was designed.

On a related note, please don't make too much out the whole "dreaming" thing, because we know from the climax of the movie that Morbius didn't even have to be asleep if he was sufficiently upset about something.

Does that help clarify what I'm proposing? I hope so, but I love talking about this stuff so much that I'll start all over again and prove my point another way, if I get half a chance!
Very Happy
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not here to win arguments, just to discuss the films and the intended/unintended consequences the narratives lead to story wise. And the Machine raises lots of questions, which is rather the point.

Given the amazed reactions of the crew to things like Robby and his ability to do things like synthesize materials, I'm more skeptical than you that these in-story space cadets have computers of the sophistication you suggest. These guys would look agog at a 3D printer, methinks. Wink

So, for the sake of "what if", let's say they don't have such sophisticated data systems. Even if the Krell scanned the entire genome of the planet 200,000+ years ago, the machine wouldn't have the data to make anything which has evolved or was bred since. So then what happens if Morbius dreams that his daughter really should have a pet Corgi? It's a dog that humans created through selective breeding; the details said breeding which Morbius is unlikely to know. So what kind of Corgi does the Machine make if he dreams of one?

To me that's more interesting than "it knows all ergo can do all perfectly".

Your Mileage May Vary, of course. Smile
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Pow
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always found it intriguing that both Forbidden Planet & Disney's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under The Sea had 2 similar scenes which I enjoyed.

On FP we have Mobius show the crew of the star ship the energy source of the Krell by looking at a mirror image of it on a monitor.

In TTLUTS we have Nemo show Ned & company the energy source of the Nautilus by wearing protective helmets.
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orzel-w
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking further about the Krell machine fabricating things from Morbius' subconscious wishes... The hypothesis of the Krell database having records of Earth animals, so that they're viable once materialized from Morbius' desire, seems to work okay. Then Morbius mistakenly believes they were descendants of specimens brought back from Earth.

But did Morbius never desire anything inanimate, enough for the machine to fabricate it and... surprise! "Hey, where did this freshly brewed cup of Starbucks come from?" (Okay. Bud will protest that the Krell machine had no record of Starbucks. And any other inanimate thing that Morbius might have wished for that could be found in the machine's database would have had to be something that predated modern man. The Grand Canyon? Monument Valley? Malibu?) How about just something like a waterfall? One day it isn't there; next morning... "Hey!"

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Eadie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame on you, Bud! And YOU a teacher! It says right at the beginning of Forbidden Planet "that by the year 2200 AD"; that's almost 200 years in the future. You forget how to count?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
I'm not here to win arguments, just to discuss the films and the intended/unintended consequences the narratives lead to story wise. And the Machine raises lots of questions, which is rather the point.

Sorry, Maurice. I get carried away sometimes. Embarassed

I love your logical and interesting assertions, and I enjoy coming up with counter points. Like you said, the machine raises lots of questions — and we're both glad it does! I'm sorry this reply is so long, but you gave me a lot to think about, and I had fun getting my thoughts straight on the matter. Very Happy

Having said that, I suspect we shall have to agree to disagree on some aspects of this. For example, I'm puzzled by this statement --


Maurice wrote:
Given the amazed reactions of the crew to things like Robby and his ability to do things like synthesize materials, I'm more skeptical than you that these in-story space cadets have computers of the sophistication you suggest. These guys would look agog at a 3D printer, methinks.

I was suggesting that computer technology of that era would be as advanced as we all know it will be in two hundred years. Look at what's been accomplished in the last fifty years! And the movie was made for an audience living in an era when TV's were black & white and telephones had rotary dials and tangled cords.

Maurice, how could a 23rd century star ship and it's crew not be equipped with computer data storage far in advance of our own today? And remember, I suggested that the extremely advanced computers with large quantities of data about Earth science and its culture would be possessed by the Bellerophon crew — a "prospecting party of scientists" — not a group of "space cadets".

Admittedly I think the C-57-D would also be equipped with a big fat database, and all the crewmen would have smart phones (like practically everybody does today), but we don't need to debate about that. Very Happy

Actually, I think the characters portrayed the right attitude towards the technology they were supposed be familiar with (like the DC stations and a FTL star ship), as well as the technology that was supposed to be new to them — like holographic images created by machines that read minds, and a robot that manufactured complex elements in large quantities.

Those are certainly not technological innovations we've accomplished yet -- not to mention the DC stations and FTL drive, things which the crew were plum blas?? about! Shocked

So again, I submit that even if the Krell machine did not have the data in its own memory to make a tiger that at least looked accurate, Morbius and his daughter certainly had plenty of pictures and videos in their own computers to study while he was home schooling her.

Remember, Altaira actually listed the subjects she had studied, just before Adams kisses her — and one of the subject was biology!

Therefore, both Morbius and his daughter would have clear mental pictures of the animals the machine decided she might like as pets. But of course, the Krell machine doesn't get clear images from Morbius' conscious mind that it can use to created solid objects — the way it would with a Krell mind. You made this interesting statement when you wondered what would happen if Morbius dreamed about a Corgi.


Maurice wrote:
So what kind of Corgi does the Machine make if he dreams of one?

To me that's more interesting than "it knows all, ergo can do all perfectly".

The machine doesn't have to know everything to act on a request it receives. In fact, the machine often acted without really understanding the request at all!

And it certainly doesn't do everything perfectly.

Morbius didn't dream specifically about the Id monster when the machine made it to rid him of the men from Earth. He just wanted the problem to go away — and the machine offered a solution that was by no means the most desirable one.

With the Krell themselves, the machine could receive clear commands that presented mental images of what they wanted it to make. But Morbius could not do that. His conscious mind wasn't strong enough — and a person's subconscious mind works very differently from the conscious mind.

When Morbius was awake, the machine could only receive intense emotions from his subconscious which indicated he wanted something — like, "I don't want those men to take me back to Earth, dammit!" The machine then attempted to obey this request in a manner that it devised.

It's like the difference between a man who decides to divorce his wife for infidelity — s opposed to a man who flies into a rage and murders the cheating bitch!

Morbius' mind wasn't sending the machine a rational, conscious request for it to create something that would painlessly solve his problem. He was sending the machine an angry, subconscious request to destroy the people who were threatening his lifestyle. And in the climax, this angry, subconscious request was even extended to his daughter!

In the case of the pets, he desperately wanted his daughter to be happy. The machine also received that deep concern from his subconscious. But in this case, he dreamed about his daughter having pets — images that were sent out by his subconscious mind.

Adams said, "Consciously you still lacked the power to operate the great machine. But your subconscious had been made strong enough!"

Morbius' subconscious mind was barely strong enough to send the machine a formless and ambiguous mental request (get rid of the men). No specific mental image was sent in connection with the problem of the men from Earth, so the machine invented something -- the Id monster.

But the problem concerning Altaira did come with specific images — animals for which she expressed enthusiasm during their school lessons, as seen in the educational pictures and videos she watched (and the "tape thrillers" Morbius mentions during lunch Very Happy ).

If Morbius' concern for his daughter caused him to have a dream of her in the garden with a group of friendly animals, the machine would then be all set to grant his request in more detail.

As for the inclusion of a tiger among those pets, there's no accounting for the whimsies of a little girl — like "Daddy, buy me a pony!" (Never mind who's going to feed it, care for it, and shovel the shit out the barn — a barn they don't even have!)

"Daddy, Daddy, look at the pretty tiger in this video! I want a white one like these two magicians had in Las Vegas!" Very Happy

And there's no accounting for the weird contents of a typical dream, either. ("I dreamed my mother was married to Barrack O'bama, but they lived in a castle!")

Put all this together and what do we get?

We get a machine that just needs to understand the minimum amount of what a user "wants" in order to provide it — as long as they want it badly enough. The Id monster is an example of this. The strong emotions were provided by Morbius. The details were provided by the machine.

But if the machine gets more than just a formless dread of an undesirable fate — like a dream that's inspired by his earnest desire for his daughter to have pets, base on the fact that she smiles with delight when she sees videos of deer and monkeys and tigers — then the machine is fully capable of creating those.

Your point about the ancient DNA data in the Krell database is well taken. Your right that the machine can't make animals using it's own data if the data isn't in it's memory banks. However, I think I've shown that dream images work just as well.

You made this interesting statement.


Maurice wrote:
So then what happens if Morbius dreams that his daughter really should have a pet Corgi?

If he wanted her to have a pet Corgi badly enough to activate the machine, she'd get one. It would look exactly the way Morbius dreamed it. If it looked wrong to him after he woke up, he'd notice this, and so would Altaira when they compared it to the data on Corgi's in their own database.

The result: Morbius would be just as troubled and confused about where the screwy dog came from as he had been for twenty years concerning the unexplained appearance of Altaira's other pets! I've been saying for years that Morbius has no clue where the animals came from, and that this bothers him almost as much as his inability to determine what the purpose of the Krell machine is!

That's why he's silent when Adams says, "I see. That explains the tiger and the deer."

No, it definitely did not explain the tiger and the deer. Instead of confirming Adam's statement, Morbius changes the subject back to the Krell history lesson.

He does the same thing later when Adams asks Morbius what the big machine is for. Instead of confessing that he doesn't know the answer, he changes the subject to the power gauges and how they activate on certain occasions — something I explained thoroughly in an earlier posts. The gauges activated because the machine was using power to create the flying birds and fighting bucks, and to scan the C-57-D in orbit!

As I pointed out, we learn in the climax that Morbius doesn't even have to be asleep for the Machine to responds to his deep-seated concerns, such as the threat of being taken back to Earth, or that his daughter plans to leave with the man she loves.

When dealing with Morbius, the machine couldn't do exactly what the Krell designed it for — the creation of an exact object that an individual Krell pictured clearly in his conscious mind. Like this.

"I want a green plastic duck call, right here in the palm of my hand."

Presto, the machine would make this.



But Morbius' human brain, even with his artificially expanded intellect, couldn't do this. Only his subconscious mind had been made strong enough. We know this because Cyril Hume told us this, through Adam's dialog.

Morbius couldn't consciously picture specific objects, like duck calls or dogs, and cause the machine to make them. His conscious thoughts simply weren't strong and clear enough for that.

But his strongest hopes and fears were received by the machine — whether he was awake or asleep — and it understood the basic intent of his fears or his needs. The machine's interpretations of Morbius' fear of being take back to Earth was manifested as the Id monster. We can see from this that Morbius does not have to provide specific details for the machine to provide something that addresses his strong subconscious need.

The machine can only get clear mental images when Morbius is asleep and his subconscious mind is more active than his conscious mind, producing those strangely realistic dream images we've all experienced.

I believe that if Morbius had dreamed that a fire engulfed the ship's interior during the night and killed the entire crew, this would have actually happened. But since Morbius just felt strong animosity towards the men from Earth, the machine provided a manifestation of his hostile feelings.

It created this scary thing.



Consider this, Maurice. When you close your eyes and try to imagine yourself in a specific place, the image is not as clear and realistic as it is when you have a dream.

I've always wonder why this is true. Even though we usually can't control the situation in a dream, the mental images of our surrounds in a dream are much more vivid than when we consciously create an imaginary place or recall a familiar one.

With that in mind, I submit that if Morbius' strongest subconscious hopes and fears happened to surface in a dream, then the Krell machine would receive from Morbius the thing it can't get from his conscious mind — a clear image of something, like the pets it made for Altaira.

And if Morbius and Altair had studied images and videos of Corgi's, then Morbius would be capable of dreaming about a Corgi in detail. If that happened, the machine could produce a Corgi that was remarkably accurate and detailed.

Again, I'm not saying the machine whistled up everything that Morbius dreamed about. But if his fervent wish was that his beloved daughter had a pet, and if this wish caused his subconscious mind to dream about a very young Altaira rolling around on the floor with her Corgi pup, laughing and happy, then the machine would be fully capable of granting that wish.

Maurice, we agree that the movie took some liberties in the way it presented these ideas — but I have no doubt that Hume's intent was for the animals to be examples other things the machine was doing besides killing people that Morbius was upset with.

It's a much better story that way. Both the story and the character are given more depth. The positive-and-negative relationship between Morbius and the machine is more interesting. And it avoids the problems which occurs when we try to explain the animals as being real creatures who just happened to wander out of the desert one day and befriend the lonely little girl.

I mean, wouldn't that tiger just eat those poor deer the first time it got hungry, long before it ever arrived at the Morbius home — if not shortly thereafter?

Morbius said, "Outside of the range of my daughter's influence, it's still a deadly wild beast."

How exactly did he know that? And if it's such deadly wild beast at any time at all, Morbius was damn fool for letting his daughter play around with a real tiger! Shocked

Of course, since he's not supposed to know that the animals were created by the machine (or the Id monster either, for that matter), I have no explanation for why Morbius let the tiger wander around the place — whether it was real or not! Very Happy

I probably shouldn't even have mention that. It doesn't support my case OR yours! Wink

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Maurice
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a quick question, cause I only have a minute:

If the machine could make objects which apparently persist, like the deer and tiger and birds, why does the Id Monster vanish when he awakens? Why doesn't it keep stomping around? I mean, sure, his subconscious may not be going "get rid of them!" once he wakes, but why is that different than the other things he supposedly dreamed into existence?

Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Great question! Very Happy

I guess the simplest way to explain this is to say that, like anything we own and use, certain objects are intended as permanent fixtures, like the furniture and decorations in my house —



— and some objects are needed only as long as they're used, like a hammer or a coffee cup.

So, if I used the Krell machine to make the stuff we see in my living room, I'd tell the machine that they were permanent items (until I change my mind), and those objects wouldn't cease to exist until I told the machine to get rid of them.

On the other hand, after I used a coffee cup I'd just set it down and let the Krell machine disassemble the atoms and store the energy (or whatever it did with objects it "un-made") rather than go to the trouble of washing the cup and putting it into the cabinet, like we normally do.

So, each object requested by the user and created by the machine had a sort of status assigned to it: a common coffee cup would vanish after being used, but a decorative coffee cup would sit on a shelf in the kitchen to be enjoyed for its aesthetic value.

The Id monster was apparently something that existed only for the time it was doing what the machine thought Morbius wanted it to do — and it vanished when his brain stopped sending the hostile feelings he felt towards the Earth men.

Remember, Morbius said his brain was weak compared to the brains of Krell children (he used the phrase "low-grade moron" to describe himself), so we have to allow for the fact that the Krell machine was getting "requests" from Morbius' subconscious that were fuzzy and faint compared to those sent by the average Krell.

Based on the clues we get in the movie, the animals were created when the machine decided they were needed, and vanished when they were not.

Why do I think that?

Because Morbius said the "gauges register when the birds fly over in the autumn or the buck deer fight in the spring." That seems to indicated that the machine had not created a permanent batch of animals that ran around the area all the time.

And the way Altaira "called" her animals in the garden probably meant that the animals were being created just out of sight when Altaira wanted them and then they pranced into the garden like the furry pets they were supposed to be. None of the people saw this miracle happen, and they didn't know the animals weren't real.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:39 pm; edited 5 times in total
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