ALL SCI-FI

[Bob Tarmac]

[Bud Brewster]

[Gord Green]

I think you're absolutely correct Bud.

As you noted, the ID "monster" is a manifestation taken from Morbious's subconscious mind. It is a PROJECTION of his consciousness and not a living thing.

It could be looked at as an intangible bundle of energy whose effect on others is caused by a release of portions of that energy.

For example, when you talk on the telephone is it your voice that comes out of the receiver? No....Your voice is transmitted to the microphone which transforms it into electrical vibrations that come out the other person's earpiece. It is not your voice, but a "manifestation" of your voice transformed into energy through the device.

The ID is just that...An artificial being created through the technology of the Krell.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[Bob Tarmac]

This is FUN!! Two against one.

All good points gentlemen! BUUUUUT …. the ID had its own individual consciousness. A consciousness with its own separate will. Separate from the will of Morbius.




Morbius: “Guilty! Guilty! My evil self is at that door! But I have no power to stop it!”


Also, remember the Krell Mind Machine? Called “The Plastic Educator?” Remember Altaria inside the Educator?

Captain: “That’s Altaria!”

Doctor: “But it’s ALIVE!

Morbius: “Because my daughter is ALIVE in my brain from microsecond to microsecond.”

Thus gentlemen, the ID using pure logic, and from Morbus own mouth, was ALIVE. From microsecond to microsecond, a doppelganger of Evil Morbius. A hidden persona. A repressed version of Morbius’s own mind, waiting for the opportunity to get out AND do what everyone’s secret inner devil does best.

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[Gord Green]

A couple points from your rebuttal....

First, the ID Monster was NOT a conscious being. It was controlled totally by Morbius's SUBCONCIOUS. It NEVER acted on it's own but always acted in accordance with Morbius's unspoken, unrealized thoughts.

Morbius had no input consciously in it's actions and his conscious mind could not control it in any way, even if it would lead to his own destruction. The ID could operate in a seemingly autonomous way, knowing how to walk up stairs etc. ,but these were just subliminal operations. Your own subconscious is not a living entity, it is just a portion of your mind. Think of it like this...You are alive, and your arm and hand are alive....But the hammer you use is not alive. It seems to know what it is doing...It strikes the nail in just the right place. The ID was no more alive than the hammer!

Second, when Adams referred to the holographic image of Alta I don't think he meant it was "literally alive" just that it took the form as if alive. I could watch FORBIDDEN PLANET and say that all those actors are alive, because I can see them move and talk and have all the appearance of being alive on my screen....But they are NOT living beings, just the semblance of them! You can't always take what is said by Adams, Morbius or even Alta as literal. ( Doc Ostrow however always spoke his mind or kept his mouth shut! lol)


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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[Bob Tarmac]

Well explained, however, “Your mind refuses to come to a conclusion” [adams].

Human Consciousness is an orchestrated blend of many independent personas coexisting within each human. If a single dominant persona, the Ego goes absent, one or several of the other personas [in the subconscious] will surface [ref., multiple personality disorder] to take its place.

The movie’s reference to Monsters from the ID are these personas.

The ID Monster was a result of the projection of the Krell machine, that is true, however, like a hand inside a glove, the ID was it’s own independent being [persona] with a self governing will of its own.

Thus, the ID was not only a living entity, it represented the baser self aspect of a human being. Thus human.
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[Gord Green]

Well Bob....Your argument is well presented but I still can't accept it. The ID had the semblance of sentience and self awareness (Not much really!), but I still think it was just a physical manifestation of Morbius's will and no more "living" than a hammer is just a tool of the carpenter wielding it.

It was a construct that mirrored Morbius's subconscious and reacted to his unspoken, even unperceived commands. It had no free will...only the deep, dark commands from Morbius's subconscious, unalterable and absolute. It was not "human", nor was it "living"....It was just a reflection of the Human psyche and no more alive than your reflection in a mirror! However, through the Krell Machine it was given the ability to manifest physical qualities channeled through the power of the Krell Furnace. The powers it showed came from the Krell...The actions it took came from Morbius's mind...NOT from any self awareness!
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[Gord Green]

[Bob Tarmac]

The ID as a hammer versus a glove versus a prosthetic device versus a vehicle. The logic of this comparison is the same. Who ultimately is the driver behind these deadly actions?

Gord, I will accept your part of the argument that it was Morbius behind the ID Monster, thus we agree that the ID was human by extension. Where we agree to disagree is in ‘who’ was the key persona/s responsible for it’s actions. This I think we can agree on.

More fun.

QUESTION: Did people use or, even have a need for hardcover bound books in the film’s 23rd century?

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[Bud Brewster]

[Bob Tarmac]

Bud: All true! Hard Bound, “hardcover” books would be very valuable in the 23rd century.

... Were there any hard bound books in use within the FIlm itself?

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[Bud Brewster]

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Well, no . . . we never saw any, but that brings up an interesting area of speculation.

If the Bellerophon had been a colony ship, we could make a strong case for the idea that the colonist brought along items from Earth which would be beneficial to their mental wellness. They would want to feel connected in some ways to Earth and human cultures.

Therefore things like books, artwork, and other deeply personal items would be helpful in making their new home on Altair 4 seem like an extension of their beloved home world, rather than a strange and unfamiliar environment.

However, the Bellerophon crew was "a prospecting part of scientist" (according to Adams), and we have no idea how long they expecting to stay on Altair 4 — other than the reasonable assumption that the visit wouldn't be too brief, since the travel time was one year each way!

In other words, I'm sort of arguing against the idea that the Bellerophon crew would have had more than just a few personal items (like hardcover books) per crewmen.

And yet I'd like to think that Morbius ordered Robby to replicate a few children's book for Altaira when she was first learning to read, simply because he'd want her to have the happy experience of reading actual books at her young age.

This assumes, of course, that the Bellerophon's database was extensive, and therefore contained detailed data on Earth culture . . . included images of children's books which Robby could use to fabricate replicas.

I'm also assuming that in this hi-tech 23rd century world, Morbius had his own copy of the Bellerophon database, which survived the destruction of the ship when it was vaporized while trying lift off.

This whole idea is part of my theory about how the Krell machine detected Morbius' deep concern for the happiness of little Altaira. He would share the replicated books with his child during "story time", and she would gleefully tell her father how wonderful it would be if she had a few pets like the animals shown in her books.

Cute pets like the monkeys, the deer, the birds . . . and that adorable kitty with the strips!


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The devoted-but-troubled father would ponder the problem of his daughter's happiness, and on several occasions he would dream about his little girl playing in the garden with the pets she had wished for — a dream that wouldn't be clearly remembered the next morning, something that happens to all of us when we wake up.

After this happened a few times over a period of months, the Krell machine would finally manage to decipher the muddled messages it was receiving from it's new human user, and it would do what it interpreted as a mental "request".

And so, one day little Altaira discovered the animals in the garden, and they kept her company for the next fifteen years or so.





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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Gord Green]

No books you say?

Morbius has two on his desk in his office. I would suspect that either they are from the Bellerathon or possibly replicated by Robby.





On the C-57d the officers review the old "charts" of Altair-4 on hard copies. Either they were brought as such or they were printouts from the ships computer.

I would guess that in this century most "books" are digital but some may be kept for sentimental reasons.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[Bud Brewster]

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Hey, right . . . I forgot about those!

They look visibly worn, so I'd say there were books brought from Earth by Morbius — perhaps they even belonged to Mrs. Morbius.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Bob Tarmac]

Good catch Gord! This also confirms what Bud speculated about the Bellerophon bringing along books with them, otherwise Morbius bound them himself.




However, there were also dozens of other books in Forbidden Planet as well.
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