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Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014
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Location: Buffalo, NY
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 Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly!
Morbius knew the machine could create and project matter, that was the basic purpose of the machine. He was able to use it like a fabrication printer. He could have it "print" out components from the Krell data base or from his own specifications.
That's how he "tinkered" out Robby!
Heck, do you think the Belleraphon crew brought all the statues, lighting sources, and other works of art? Yes, I think Robby helped build the house, but some of it's decoration seems to reflect Morbius's taste.
He knew it could create and project matter...He said so himself when he was talking to Adams and Ostrow....BUT he never considered that it could also create and project ENERGY and that his own subconscious controlled it!
When it was revealed to him he said "Why didn't I see it all along?" No, he was not aware that all the death and destruction was caused by his buried subconscious mind.
In my story Alta was created as physical matter. This was also a result of Morbius's grief. She was built to be human...possibly from the real dead child's DNA.
She was VERY real and exactly as we see her! Neither her nor Robby were dependent on Morbius like the energy ID creature was. She would not fade away. She was human...although possibly she could be considered a "clone" of Morbius's dead child.
This makes Adam's talk to her at the end "That we are not God." even MORE important!
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I've heard some other crazy ideas, like...
"Altaira was really an evil Krell scientist projecting an image of a young girl (Like some kind of hypnotoad...A FUTURERAMA reference!) whose plot is to seduce one of the earthlings and get him to take "her" off planet so he can spread evil through the universe!"
That's such a stretch as to be crazy! Anyway it is a "Thinking beyond the plot" even if it is BS!
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
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Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, what a great reply! Plenty of stuff to discuss and debate. We're both passionate about this movie, and we love to concoct new concepts and analyze existing ones.
I realize that you’ve proposed one version of a “re-imagined” Forbidden Planet, while I’ve proposed a very different version that faithfully preserves the movie’s plot.
My version is intended to leave the existing story intact, while revealing things that answer certain perplexing questions — like where the helll did Morbius get all the beautiful stuff we see in his house? 
I must confess that I’d never given that concept much though! Your terrific observation below was my “wake up” call! 
| Gord Green wrote: | | Heck, do you think the Belleraphon crew brought all the statues, lighting sources, and other works of art? Yes, I think Robby helped build the house, but some of it's decoration seems to reflect Morbius's taste.! |
However, since Morbius didn’t know what the Krell machine was designed to do until the climax of the movie, I knew I couldn’t just propose that the Krell machine made all the needed objects for him.
But then I had an interesting thought.
What if Morbius discovered that after he took the first brain boost (some time after the Bellerophon arrived) he woke up on several mornings and found objects he’d dreamed about which appeared mysteriously in his cabin aboard the ship. These would be treasured objects he and his wife had been forced to leave on Earth because of the “weight and volume restrictions” for each crewmen’s personal items.
Morbius eventually concluded that the brain boost had given him a “super power”. He was now able to create solid objects with his mind. But it was only happening while he was asleep, when he had dreams which contained strong emotional content related to certain physical objects.
Morbius must have theorized that the plastic educator’s purpose was to teach Krell children to visualize objects so they could create matter by pure thought when they got older.
Actually, I think that might have been one of the prime functions of the plastic educator — it taught the children how to use the Krell Machine!
So, his theory was partly correct. But he assumed their power to create matter was a natural ability, one which the Krell developed when they matured. He didn’t know that the Krell scientist had developed the machine to give them with this ability.
Morbius assumed that the plastic educator had enhanced his own brain enough to have this same natural ability — though to a much smaller degree than an adult Krell.
Little did Morbius realize that the Krell machine was attempting to fulfill its intended function by creating objects whenever his subconscious mind was focused on cherish objects he wished he still possessed.
Morbius kept this (imagined) ability a secret from the Bellerophon crew — with the exception of his wife, a biochemist whose maiden name was Julia Marin. They’d been married by the Bellerophon’s skipper during the voyage to Altair 4. Julia encouraged Edward to develop this amazing new ability by attempting to do it while fully conscious.
Eventually Morbius succeeded by using self-hynosis, during which he would focus his thoughts on the creation of physical objects.
Here’s the definition of self-hypnosis.
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Self-hypnosis involves becoming highly focused and absorbed in the experience while giving yourself positive suggestions about ways to reach your goals. Self-hypnosis is an individual practice, unlike when you are working with a therapist
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Please note: Morbius stated that the brain boost had “permanently doubled” his intellectual capacity. Because of this, he was able to achieve a level of self-hypnosis far greater than normal. And while doing so, he could give himself “positive suggestions about ways to reach his goals”.
Gord, what I’m tyring to do is solve a few unexplained aspects of this magnificent story. I’m suggesting that Morbius was keeping a secret which we (the audience) never before suspected. Even though Morbius had no awareness of what the Krell machine was designed to do, the machine started responding to his thoughts about things he “wished” for during his hypnotic trances.
Even though Morbius mistakenly thought the Plastic Educator's brain boosts had given him the ability to create solid objects, he did succeed in using this (imagined) power to create the materials and décor needed for the house he was building for his wife and the child they were expecting,
He also used this ability to create the component parts of Robby, which he said he designed using knowledge he'd learned from the Krell database. Then he “tinkered him together”. 
Bear in mind, Gord, that throughout all this he still had no idea the Krell machine was responding to his mental “requests” for the objects he wanted to be created. What I’m doing is giving Morbius the ability to create the objects he needed , , , without violating the climax of Forbidden Plane, because that was when he finally learned what the Krell machine was designed to do.
Please note that Morbius never lied to the anyone in the story! He simply chose not to reveal that he believed the Plastic Educator had given him the ability to create solid objects with his “artificially enhanced intellect” (as Dr. Ostrow described it).
This is my attempt to fill in the “backstory” which the complex plot couldn’t give us in a 96-minute running time.
The interesting thing about this concept is that it means Morbius did consciously create Altaira’s pets, along with all the things in the house,
Gord, I would never have thought of this without the comments you made!
In view of this, we should re-examine Morbius’ firm statement when he told Adams that, “I have come to the unalterable conclusion that man is unfit — as yet — to receive such knowledge, such almost limitless power.”
Morbius believed the plastic educator not only boosted his intelligence, it also gave him the power to create matter with his mind. So, his conviction that man was not ready for such power would be entirely be justified, because we might have ended up destroying ourselves the same way the Krell did!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17065
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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All Sci-Fi member Bob Tarmac has spent years composing and recording his incredible music, inspired by the electronic score created by Louis and Bebe Barron for Forbidden Planet.
Bob's remarkable work is available on Soundcloud. Click on the link below and enjoy hours of amazing electronic music that will take back to that spectacular planet called Altair 4!
I especially like the one entltled Deep In A Krell Forest. Click and enjoy, follow Krellians!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17065
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Allow me offer a few new clues and considerations concerning an earlier discussion on this thread consider the manner in which Adams planned to send a message back to Earth.
First of all, I believe the communication method was indeed FTL, and that a message would reach Earth quickly.
How do I know? Morbius told us.
When Adams said he had to contact Earth for new instructions, Morbius replies, "But Commander, suppose these new instructions require my return to Earth. Two years or more away from work.
That's important, because it tells us that Morbius' main concern is having to leave Altair 4, not the possibility that the ship will have to stay for two years while a message is sent and a reply is received — although he is in fact eager for them to leave as soon as posssible.
This is confirmed by the fact that when Adams says that building the bunker to house the coil will take ten days, Morbius voices his concern for the delay, and he offers to speed up the process by supply the shielding.
Morbius replies, "Disabled here for ten days and nights. Tell me, would two-inch lead shield do as well."
He wants to help them finish the transmitter quickly, which suggests that once the message is sent, a reply will be received soon afterwards.
Conversely, if the message that would eventually be sent was going to take a long time to reach Earth, and the reply took just as long to return, Morbius wouldn't be sweating a mere ten-day delay.
Conclusion: The transmission trip time will be short.
As for the Bellerophon, I think it was probably a bigger ship than the C-57-D, and it would have a transmitter built in.
Why? Well, partly because of what Krel said.
| Krel wrote: | | The Bellerophon expedition was prospecting Scientists. That says to me that they were there to investigate Altair IV's suitability for colonization. That is a process that would take years at best. |
Absolutely true . . . in the long run. But a preliminary report and follow-up reports would be essential as well. Earth would want to know, on a regular basis, what the expedition was learning about this prime candidate for colonization.
So, why didn't they send a "We landed safely!" message? We don't know, but one of the deleted scenes asks that same question. Go the 3:00 mark in the video below, where the discussion takes place between Adams, Ostrow, and Farman.
_________ FORBIDDEN PLANET Deleted Scenes
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Adams: Ever ask yourself why the never sent word back?
Farman: Ah, they might have cracked up landing.
Adams: Or they could have made man's first contact with an alien race.
Even though this DOES tells us they never sent back confirmation that they'd landed safely, it does NOT tell us there was no message saying they had reached the Altair 4 system.
Why am I splitting hairs? Here's why.
If the United Federation of Planets had no reason to believe the Bellerophon had arrived at their destination, they wouldn't have sent the C-57-D on a two-year mission to look for a ship that may not have even reached Altair 4! 
In fact, when Adams made his PA announcement to the crew, he said, "Twenty years ago the spacecraft Bellerophon landed here with a prospecting party of scientists. Our mission is to search for survivors."
So, the only assumption the United Planets made was that the Bellerophon had landed, after which something apparently happened to prevent them from sending a confirmation message.
In other words, the only way the United Planets could possibly know the Bellerophon had reached Altair 4 would be for them to send at least one message before landing.
Please note that in the deleted scene Adams said, "Ever ask yourself why they never sent word back?" I think he meant that they never sent a message after landing. But they must have sent one-or-more messages en route, and probably one after going into orbit.
As for the question concerning why the C-57-D didn't have a subspace transmitter like the Bellerophon did, consider Adams' explanation to Morbius about how the message would be sent.
"Fundamentally it's a question crude power; how to short circuit the continuum on a five or six parsec level. Of course, a transmitter like that isn't standard equipment. To build one we'll have to cannibalize about two-thirds of the ships electronic gear, and unship the main drive to juice it."
I believe it's reasonable to assume that the C-57-D is too small to carry a built-in subspace transmitter, because it must have a power source equal the ship's main drive, surrounded by its own radiation shielding. Or the main drive must be powerful enough to serve the hyperdrive AND the transmitter which "short circuits the space time continue".
The C-57-D's drive could supply power for one system or the other — but not both while in space.
However, the Bellerophon might have been a much larger spacecraft which possessed enough power to stay in touch with Earth and report on their progress during the journey, along with their findings after they arrived.
As Krel pointed out, however, it's still puzzling that Earth waited twenty years to send a rescue mission to "search for survivors". Add to this the fact that the C-57-D would be hard pressed to take on very many passengers — if any were found.
So, that aspect of the story is definitely questionable. It would be more reasonable for the United Federation of Planets to send a ship that could house both its own crew and all-or-most of the Bellerophon crew.
This would also mean they'd have a built-in FTl communicator so that did have to build on! 
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2944
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Where are the Krell?
Where there's life, there's also death. While we like to imagine that our galaxy is teeming with technological beings capable of contacting us, the flip side is recognizing that all cultures rise and fall, meaning that plenty of cosmic societies likely bit the dust long ago. Some, like the Krell self -destructed with their own technology!
A model released in December 2020 put some numbers to these truths, taking into account such things as the prevalence of sun-like stars hosting Earth-like planets; the frequency of deadly, radiation-blasting supernovas; the time necessary for intelligent life to evolve if conditions are right; and the possible tendency of tool-bearing beings to destroy themselves. The Krell were destroyed by their own atainment and mis-understandment of their own technology!
The analysis found that the highest probability of life emerging in the Milky Way likely happened around 5.5 billion years ago, before our planet even formed, suggesting that humanity is a relative latecomer to the galaxy and that plenty of our potential otherworldly partners are no longer around to talk to us.
Our own contact with aliens, like with the Krell, will be by Astroarcheologists and crews like Adams' of the C-57-d.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Maurice
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Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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"Twenty years ago, the spacecraft Bellerophon landed here... with a prospecting party of scientists."
Altair is 16.73 ± 0.05 ly from Earth.
If the ship was supposed to send a lightspeed message back to Earth, said message would have been expected to arrive only a year before the C-57D was sent to check. So, after a year with no expected word, the United Planets sent a ship to investigate.
No FTL transmitter required.
In fact, it fits with the story. Why wait 18 years to send relief if you expected a message more or less instantly upon arrival?
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"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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Bud Brewster
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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A very good point, Maurice.
I'd agree with you if we assumed that 20 years ago FTL transmissions were not yet possible.
But if that were true, Morbius would have assumed that a message sent to Earth by Adams would take 16 years, and the reply would be received 16 years later!
However, he fully understood that the reply would be quick. His only worry was that he'd be told he had to returned to Earth.
I had to re-read my post above to remember all the evidence I present on this subject. I think I made a strong case for the idea that the Bellerophon was equipped with an FTL communicator (rather than having to build one), and that they did in fact send a message that they had reached Altaira 4.
So, Earth knew they had made it there safely.
What they did NOT send back was any messages after they landed. That's why the C-57-D was sent to "search for survivors". They really didn't expect to find any, which is why such a small ship was sent. Basically they were just investigating a crash . . . 
I still firmly believe that near-instantaneous communication was possible.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Brewster wrote: | | I still firmly believe that near-instantaneous communication was possible. |
I agree that was implied all along. Adams said that they had to unpack the ships' drive and "short circuit the continuum ".
They very well could use "entwined atomic particles" to get instantaneous communication. That's what Einstien called "spooky action at a distance".
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013
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Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord Green wrote: | | They very well could use "entwined atomic particles" to get instantaneous communication. That's what Einstien called "spooky action at a distance". |
Gord, that's brilliant! The cosmos has a built-in "internet" with a connection speed rated at instantaneous!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Maurice
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Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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If near instantaneous comms were possible for the Bellerophon it makes zero sense that United Planets would wait two decades to send relief. That's my point.
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"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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Gord Green
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Maurice, not if they don't answer the phone!
It may have taken time to set up a follow up trip.
Also, instantaneous communication ability may be a more recent invention. The Bellerophon may not have had one onboard.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Maurice, you're absolutely right. As I said above in my Oct 9th post, it's puzzling that Earth waited twenty years to send a rescue mission to "search for survivors".
And as Gord reiterated, instantaneous communication may be a more recent invention.
We could perhaps be kind to the movie and assume that some kind of FTL communication did exist for the Bellerophon, but not instantaneous.
As I mentioned earlier, if the only way the Bellerophon could communicate with Earth was a lightspeed signal, Morbius would have assumed that a message sent to Earth by Adams would take 16 years, and the reply would be received 16 years later.
And by God, that REALLY makes no sense!
But Morbius didn't do that. He knew a reply would be received quickly, and he might have to leave with the C-57-D. So, we are indeed stuck with a situation that seems to make no sense.
But gosh, ain't we having fun discussing the problem!
By the way, Gord's excerpt from the scripted reveals something interesting. Adams states that the ship has some of the parts needed for the comm system, and the space manual includes instructions — but he says he'd never heard of a situation in which a ship had to build one!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tmlindsey
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Joined: 18 Jul 2022
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Location: NW Florida
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, it was a ship full of men; maybe they left right away, but got lost and refused to ask for directions? 
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Maurice
Mission Specialist
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 472
Location: 3rd Rock
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Astronomy in Movies: The Secret Prequel to Star Trek (link)
Michael Siegel
"This week, I kick off a long-term project on Star Trek by talking the film that most influenced it: the classic 1956 sci-fi film Forbidden Planet."
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"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Tom! Thanks!
I couldn't resist the urge to encourage our members to watch this video by dressing up the link like I usually do.
Michael Siegel got ALL his facts straight, and that's something that many commentators on Forbidden Planet fail to do.
He made one observation that was interesting. He said exterior of the Morbius home seemed somewhat like a recycled saucer hull, converted into a house.
To his credit, Michael stated that he did NOT think it was actually supposed to be a portion of the upper hull of the Bellerophon, just that it suggested the idea because of its shape.
Astronomy in Movies: The Secret Prequel to Star Trek
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Here's the link to Michael Siegel's YouTube channel home page, which offers many fine videos like the one above.
https://www.youtube.com/c/MichaelSiegel14
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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