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Destination Moon (1950)
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mach7
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An intriguing idea Bud but not a real threat.

I think Maurice has the right idea.

It took Apollo 3 days to get from the moon to the earth.

That was with the advanced propulsion of the Service Module's AJ10-137 engine.

True the Apollo engine had less thrust than the V-2 but it did not have to lift out of the gravity well of the moon. That would take a significant amount of it's fuel.

While I have not run the numbers, I would be surprised if a V-2 launched from the moon could make it to the earth in less than 4 days.

The V-2 did not stage, so there would be a 45x11 ft rocket traveling to the earth for 4 days giving a long time for SAC to respond, return, refuel. 3 times.

Keep in mind that the V-2 is a fully ballistic rocket. The engine fired for 65 seconds. It was steered by vanes in the rocket exhaust. After engine shut down it would have no guidance at all, for 238,000 miles.

Speaking of guidance the V-2 used basically gyroscopes and a basic analog computer. This allowed for a accuracy of 3.5 miles at a range of 200 miles. At 238,000 miles it would be lucky to hit the earth at all, let alone a specific country, and would have a near zero chance of hitting Washington DC. It would however have exactly the same chance of hitting Moscow as DC.

Next the V-2 would have to survive re-entry. Orbital vehicles re-enter at around 17,000 to 18,000 miles an hour. Apollo re-entered at 25,000 MPH.

The V-2 maximum speed was 3,500 MPH at impact. It had no heat shield protection. It would be vaporized by re-entry speeds. Nothing would survive to impact any city.

It might make a good movie, but the physics is bad. But that's never stopped Hollywood before.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice wrote:
If you have the capability of putting missiles on the Moon with which to attack Earth, you don't need to.

It'd be easier to park them at geostationary orbit, 1/10th of the distance to the moon. No need to escape a gravity well and you have a much greater chance for surprise.

That's a very good point, Maurice! Very Happy

But remember, this an imaginary sequel to Destination Moon which would be released around 1953.

I pondered your alternate strategy, it occurred to me that both ideas (Moon-launched missiles vs bombs in geostationary orbits) each has advantages and disadvantages.

As you pointed out, the Moon-launched missiles would take more than a day to arrive. However, they wouldn't be intended as "surprise attacks". They're meant to a terrible punishment for America's refusal to meet the Russian's demands for troop withdrawals.

The danger we would face is that after the missiles were launched, America would have no way to stop them. That's why General Thayer in Destination Moon said there was no way of stop an attack from the Moon.

So, even though we knew the missiles were coming two-days in advance, we couldn't do anything except what you suggested; bomb the hell out of Moscow and start World War III!

Meanwhile, Washington and two major cities are gone, and we're swapping nukes with the Russians. Not a very appealing situation.

I should also point out that in 1953, Russia hadn't even sent up Sputnik yet — so they obviously weren't capable of putting nukes in geostationary orbits and then remotely bringing them down on American targets with any accuracy. After all, Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs) weren't developed by the United States until 1959.

Therefore, I still maintain that the simplicity of missiles which couldn't be stopped after launching from the Moon's 1/6th gravity would mean we'd have to give in to the Russians demands.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2023 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

______________________________________________

Great reply, Mark! Very Happy

I finished writing my post yesterday and didn't realize you had added one a few minutes before I submitted mine, so I didn't notice it until today. Obviously the important elements you described would have to be addressed to make the idea more plausible.

But hey — that's the fun part!

For example, I should have specified that the Russian "V-2 type" missiles I referred to would be much more advanced than the ones used ten years earlier by the Germans. Naturally they would have different guidance systems, more thrust, and whatever else necessary to do the job.

Your comment made me wonder about the 3,500 mph reentry speed which these missiles would endure (assuming they traveled about as fast as the V-2.) You're right — they would have to decelerate to about 2,000 miles per hour — the approximate speed of the SR-71 Blackbird, which gets hot but doesn't burn up.

And since they would be dropping straight down, they'd only have to travel about 60 miles (the thickness of the atmosphere).

As for hitting the targets at that speed, the A-bombs would detonate 1,500 feet above the cities, just like the two bombs that fell on Japan.

Mark, you obviously have the knowledge and imagination to work out the kinks in my whimsical little yarn. I look forward to hearing what alterations you can suggest to fix it. Very Happy

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mach7
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm....

Let me think a bit. I know the '50s were the atomic age but my mind wanders towards kinetic's or light.
Both could make interesting weapons.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mach7 wrote:
Let me think a bit. I know the '50s were the atomic age but my mind wanders towards kinetic's or light.

By God, Mark, now you're cookin' with atomic energy! Cool

You'll have to tell me a bit more about "kinetic weapons", but here's what I came up with concerning your other suggestion.
______________________________________________

Let's get creative and rewrite history a bit by having several of the German scientists who were taken to Russia after WWII reveal that they had developed the first laser. But they'd hid it from Hitler's people because they hated what was being done with the scientific advances they were making, such as the V2. Sad

The Russians tell the German scientists that laser weapons could defend Mother Russia against the threat of the American capitalists much better than nuclear weapons, which would kill millions of innocent people and pollute the atmosphere with radiation.

The image below illustrates the strategy the Russian hierarchy pitches to their scientists, a way to protect the USSR from the hated Yankee dogs who want to destroy them!






So, Russia pores billions of rubles into the creation of laser weapons they want to use against America.

Ten years later, in 1955, the Russians have built ten giant rockets which will each be equipped with laser cannons. The plan is to send these to the Moon so they can focus their beams at targets in the United States.

Placing them on the Moon insures that the U.S. can't send bombers to destroy the laser cannons, and they can strike at any target in the country — instantly!

What do you think, Mark? Does this verify Destination Moon's claim that, "The country that controls the Moon . . . controls the world!"

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mach7
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting idea, and not at all where I was going!

Doable, technologically possible (sort of) for the time.

There are problems with the beam spreading. The beam would spread a lot coming from the moon. Unless I'm wrong it would be over 80 miles in diameter. There is also blooming once it hits the atmosphere.

Hmmmmm.

On the plus side it's just over 1 second for light to travel from the moon to the earth, there is zero reaction time for the target. All the evil soviets would need is a set of really good telescopes to aim them. Zeiss was in East Germany, so no issues there.

Power should not be a factor if enough solar panels can be transported. But they would need a LARGE field of them.

Thinking, Thinking....
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

______________________________________________

Glad you like the idea, Mark.

What I like about the cocept is that it draws on the popular notion that the Nazis had secret projects we still don't know about. And in this case, the Russians were delighted to inherit some of those secrets after the war.

The Discovery Channel and the History Channel often air shows that discuss "secret Nazi weapons" . . . although I don't credit them with too much truth. But I love the idea! Very Happy

As for the spreading of the beam, we can just "invent" a way to reduce the spreading. After all, science fiction is suppose to incorporate "new discoveries", not just use the existing knowledge. Very Happy

Actually, the Nazis did have some wild ideas similar to what I suggested. Take a look at this entertaining wideo — and remember, we're talking about imaginative story concepts, not practical applications. Very Happy


The Nazi Sun Gun: Remembering That Time When Hitler Wanted a Death Star


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mach7
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2023 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The simple solution would be a giant lens at the L1 point between the earth and the moon

But if we are going blue sky NAZI ideas and science fiction I like artificial high gravity fields.

It fits with the secret NAZI projects feel and adds to the story.

High gravity can bend space/time and light.

Maybe a rosette of 5 quantum black holes (QBH) at the L1 point between the earth and the moon. This could "lens" the beam and tighten it up.

But if the Soviets can create and manipulate QBH's, that is a WEAPON!

Imagine that the Soviets threaten to drop a QBH on Washington DC. It would be a Tunguska event! A megaton explosion event and very high energy radiation. Massive devastation.

Now add in that you need an element only found on the moon. Helium 3? Lunite? bobsurunclite? and we have a STORY!

Bud, I think we have a winner. Do you have any connections in hollywood to pitch this?
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Maurice
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
The danger we would face is that after the missiles were launched, America would have no way to stop them. That's why General Thayer in Destination Moon said there was no way of stop an attack from the Moon.

Any why would the Russians think that would be any sort of effective threat since the US would B-36 them to vapor before the rockets could arrive from the Moon? I makes no strategic sense at all.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

______________________________________________

Mark, your idea of a "gravity lens" is terrific! With a weapon like that, the Russians could even burn our bombers as they head into Russia.

Awesome, Dude. I call James Cameron's private number and pitch the whole concept to him! Very Happy


Maurice wrote:
Why would the Russians think that would be any sort of effective threat since the US would B-36 them to vapor before the rockets could arrive from the Moon? I makes no strategic sense at all.

Maurice, I think you've misunderstood the true purpose of the original ""Moon missiles" idea, which is to create a threat which the U.S. could not ignore. The Russians don't really want to destroy America cites, they want to force us to withdraw troops from bases in foreign countries.

But if we refused, and they did launch the missiles, the Russians certainly aren't going to sit in the Kremlin with startled expressions while American bombers come over the horizon. In fact, if the Russians did decide to launch the missiles, I'm sure they would be fully prepared to launch their own bombers at the same time — well ahead of our own attack!

Both countries would end up devastated, lifeless, and poisoned by radiation for a thousand years.

The strategy that makes the most sense,— and this is the point I've be trying to get across from the start — is that America would realize that defying the Russians would result in a devastated planet.

So, if the Russians had the Moon missiles ready to go and demanded that we recall all our troops, we'd have no choice but to do exactly that.

Frankly, sir, the suggestion to nuke the Russians (while unstoppable missiles are headed for Washington) is the one that "makes no strategic sense at all".

Having said all that, please reconsider my original story idea back page 5 of this thread.
_______________________________________________

The Russian's bold and villainous plan is to quickly establish the group of three missiles on the Moon’s surface, refuel them from the huge rocket which brought them there, and then demand that the United States withdraw it's troops from all it's military bases around the world.






If we refuse, the nuclear missiles will be launched at Washington and two other major U.S. cities!

When our government finds out about the plan, they realize that the only time when the large rocket and the three missiles would be vulnerable is the short period between the landing and the moment they’ve been refueled and set up for launch.

After that, the missiles can be launched at a moment's notice, and Washington would be destroy!

Jim Barnes’ company feverishly builds a rocket that can get to the Moon shortly after the Russian rocket lands. The new ship is armed with missiles that can destroy the Russian’s hastily establish launching site.



_______________________________________________

I suppose America could try to call Russians' bluff and hope they don't actually launch the missiles — but it would be much smarter to neutralize the threat by going to the Moon and preventing the missiles from being launched at all.

THAT is the option that makes a lot more strategic sense than either hoping the Russians won't launch the missiles, or starting WWIII and causing the destruction of both countries.

And remember, if America does not go to Moon and neutralize the threat at its source, the Russians can transport more missiles to the Moon . . . so many in fact that they would eventually be capable of wiping out American in one devastating attack!
Shocked[



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Krel
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the Soviets are dropping V2s from space they wouldn't need atomic bombs just a solid projectile. It would be a 1950's version of Project Thor. They could build the German's never built (as far as I know) 2-stage V2 that was to be used to attack America.

You launch it from the moon with the V2 having as much metal as possible. If they could drop a couple of tons from orbit, they would get nuke-like results without the radiation and fallout. A much more frightening weapon, because they wouldn't need to hold back.

Of course if they did that, then America would go ape and hit Russia with EVERYTHING in the arsenal.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

______________________________________________

David, I LOVE that idea! You've brought the whole concept back to the original idea of V-2's launched from the Moon! Very Happy

Here's a thought: Would it have to be metal? Confused

Rather than hauling metal up from Earth, they could use the material available right there on the Moon! Just pack the missiles with Moon rocks instead. One ton of Moon rocks would weight six tons when it hit the target on Earth. Very Happy

And instead of targeting the city of Washington D.C. with a nuke, the Russians could target the Capitol building with six tons of Moon rocks when congress was in session, debating what to do about the damn commies who were trying to wipe out the American government! Shocked

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mach7
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats my kinetic weapon idea! Well thought Krel.

But it would still need 3-4 days to make the crossing.

And there is still the issue of guidance.

My other idea was light. Specifically a constellation of large
mirrors at the L1, L4, and L5 points to focus and concentrate sunlight into a weapon. Coordinated they could burn large, unprotected cities.
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Krel
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mach7 wrote:
Thats my kinetic weapon idea! Well thought Krel.

But it would still need 3-4 days to make the crossing.

And there is still the issue of guidance.

Being non atomic it could be used as the Germans used the V (Vengeance) 1&2. As a terror weapon. Just announce they have been launched and rain them down. With nuke-like results and no radiation or fallout, it wouldn't matter where they struck. As long as they impacted on the United States, the missiles could hit in the middle of nowhere, but the terror would be there because of the unpredictability and devastation.

Bud, metal would be better because of the density needed to survive reentry and the ability to not break apart before impact. Maybe a solar refinery on the Moon could be used to fuse the rock into a solid projectile. Make them large and dense enough to survive reentry (or would that be entry?) you could just bolt the engines and guidance system to the rock missile.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

______________________________________________

Gentlemen, I'm officially dazzled by these amazing concepts! But I'm also ashamed of the fact that I didn't think of that Moon-rock-missile idea myself. Rolling Eyes

It's brilliant! Cool

With no air on the Moon, these "missiles" would need absolutely NO aerodynamic shape. Google says that meteors enter the atmosphere at about 133,00 mph. The Moon-rock-missiles (MRMs) could be sent towards Earth much slower than that, to avoid extreme friction when they hit the atmosphere.

After all, if the modified V-2s were going to take 3-4 days to get here away, it won't matter if the MRMs take 5 days! As Mark pointed out, they're "terror" weapons — not weapons meant for a surprise attack.

Add to this the idea that the MRM could fire their engines as they descend on the target, this gaining speed in the final moments before impact.

All the Russians would have to do is demonstrate the capabilities of the MRMs with a few impacts near Las Vegas. America would be forced to recall our military from overseas bases rather than risk multiple strikes on major cities.

As for the guidance problem, I think the MRMs could be aimed well enough at least to hit close to cities like New York, Washington D.C., etc. to really shake up the nation.

Concerning the giant solar mirrors, I love the idea, It occurs to me , however, that these would be (a) extremely hard for the Russian to build, and (b) extremely easy for America to destroy!

First of all, the L5 and L4 Earth-Moom lagrange points are 248,548 miles from Earth (which is further away than the Moon), and they're located ahead and behind the Moon along its orbital path. The L2 point is a few thousands miles beyond the Moon — not to mention the fact that it's behind it, which would block the mirror's beam.






I can't help wondering if the solar mirrors could focus the beams small enough to be effective on the targets at those distances. When we discussed the laser cannon idea, you pointed out that the laser beam would spread too much.

However, I realize that this is a very different situation, so perhaps the solar mirror would work better than the laser. And yet, building the mirrors out in space would be difficult, and I suppose they would need a crew to aim them.

Perhaps the Russians could build the mirror on the Lunar surface. But even with a mount that allowed it to change angles (to a limited degree), it would only be usable when the angle between the sun and Earth was within the mount's range of motion — and even then, only during the 14 days of sunlight.

On the other hand, if it was positioned in a high Earth orbit, America could shot it down with our own versions of the new, improved V-2 missiles.

Of course, if we did that, we'll have seven years of bad luck . . . Sad

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