ALL SCI-FI Forum Index ALL SCI-FI
The place to “find your people”.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Men Must Fight (1933)

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> Sci-Fi Movies and Serials from 1900 to 1949
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steve Joyce
Solar Explorer


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:31 pm    Post subject: Men Must Fight (1933) Reply with quote

Just wondering if anyone has opinions on this (imho) interesting little gem. Wondering more so how they interpreted it.

My own feeling is that - although at first glance the film has an ambiguous message - that it is really pacifistic.

Let's compare MMF with The Day After (1983 - Made for TV and I don't know what I chose that for comparison). TDA presents an extrapolation of the future with the obvious hope that it doesn't occur (i.e. Nuclear Armageddon). It seems that it's message is "unless we act, this will happen". MMF presents a vicious cycle of trying to keep peace, needing to go to war ... repeated for each generation. I read the vicious cycle likewise to be "unless we act, this will happen". Thus, the film is to my mind, firmly in the anti-war column. Of course, that could be my own ink-blot interpretation.

Always have been fond of MMF for some reason and, like I say, interested to hear others' take.

Steve

_________________
"There is a planet in the Solar System where the people are so stupid they didn't catch on for a million years that there was another half to their planet." - Kilgore Trout.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for those unfamiliar with the film, here is the synopsis from the TCM site:

Brief Synopsis


Just before her lover of three days, Lieutenant Geoffrey Aiken, is to leave on his first World War I flying mission, Laura, a military nurse, accepts his marriage proposal and pledges her undying love.

After confiding her romance to Edward "Ned" Seward, an older officer who also wants to marry her, Laura discovers Geoffrey dying from battle injuries in her ward. Unable to cope with the stress of Geoffrey's death and her impending motherhood, Laura is transferred to another hospital and eventually accepts the proposal of the devoted Ned.

In 1940, Bob Seward, Laura's son, whom Ned has reared as his own, returns to New York City from Europe, where he has earned a degree in chemical engineering, eager to introduce his fianc??e, Peggy Chase, to his parents. Although Peggy is nervous about meeting Ned, now the Secretary of State, and his socially prominent wife, Bob reassures her that she will be welcomed into the family.

While Laura and Ned embrace their future daughter-in-law, Peggy's mother explodes at Bob when he criticizes her for defending the absolute sanctity of the American flag. Soon after, Ned learns that, in spite of his recent international peace treaty negotiations, the United States has sent ships to Eurasia in anticipation of war.

Laura, an avowed pacifist, begs with Ned to resign his post in protest of his president's actions, but Ned refuses to quit and leaves for Washington, D.C. While news of Eurasian troop mobilization spreads across the country, Laura starts a desperate peace movement, which is founded on the idea that no mother should be forced to send her young son into battle to fight an old man's war.

In spite of Ned's embarrassment about her pacifist activities, Laura agrees to speak at a massive rally, which is to be televised publicly. Angered by Laura's anti-war speech, a group of men crash the rally and instigate a vicious brawl, which eventually leads to a mob attack on the Sewards' penthouse. To soothe the rock-throwing crowd, Ned appears on the balcony with Peggy's brother Steve, a uniformed soldier, and vows that, if war is declared, all of the Sewards will do their patriotic duty.

Ned then tells a reporter that Bob is going to accept a commission to engineer chemical weaponry, a claim that outrages both Bob and Laura. Although Peggy questions his courage and breaks her engagement with him, Bob maintains his pacifist convictions. When Ned hears of Bob's decision, he angrily tells Bob that he is not a natural Seward and rejects his adopted son as a coward. Laura then explains to Bob about Geoffrey and how he died a hero's death.

Seeing her son's subsequent confusion and loneliness, Laura goes to the Chases' home and begs Peggy to hear the story of Bob's past. While Laura and Peggy are driving back to the Sewards' home, a fleet of Eurasian airplanes begins an aerial attack on the city. Laura is wounded during the bombardment, and Ned learns that 12,000 American pilots have already died, victims of the enemy's gas warfare.

Sobered by these statistics, Ned backs down on his chemical warfare policy, but learns that Bob has enlisted as a flyer. Although frightened for both her son and herself, Laura accepts Bob's enlistment, then with the now married Peggy, proudly watches him fly away to war.

A trailer for it is available on YOUTUBE here ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMc502VcX5k
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Joyce
Solar Explorer


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just noticed that this got moved to a different folder. No Biggie. But ... I'd consider it science fiction as it is a sort of "Alternate Future History" story (if that term makes any sense).

Fwiw, Men Must Fight is listed in The Overlook Film Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and is categorized in Walt Lee's Reference Guide to Fantastic Film as "SF".
_________________
"There is a planet in the Solar System where the people are so stupid they didn't catch on for a million years that there was another half to their planet." - Kilgore Trout.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This movie was released in 1933 and the story spanned from around 1916 to the late 40's making it DEFINITELY as much science fiction as METROPOLIS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17018
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Sorry, guys. I moved it back. Embarassed

I didn't see anything in the plot summaries on IMDB and Wikipedia (which just called it a "drama") that mentioned a science fiction element, and even The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction doesn't make a very strong case for it being science fiction. It just says, "Men Must Fight incidentally features the widespread use of Television and the Vidphone among often futuristic sets."

I watched segments of it on the YouTube video (the full movie), and used the preview images along the progress bar to look for the "futuristic sets". I never found any. So, they must not have occurred as "often" as the sentence states.

All I managed to find that looked the least bit like a science fiction film were a few scenes of people talking on telephones with small video screens. And the televisions were just small tabletop models, common in the 1950s.

But, of course, it's the premise of the film that determines if it's science fiction, not just special effects and futuristic props. So, I'll take your word for it that it's sci-fi.

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let's say that it's a subtle socially oriented, not technically oriented vision of what would be the future from the point of view of the 30's.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eadie
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 1695

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be a bit of confusion going on here. Men Must Fight (1933) uses a lot of Art Deco design with a TV set being the outstanding feature.



Art Deco was considered very futuristic at that time much as Mid-Century Modern was considered futuristic in Forbidden Planet (1956).

Besides the futuristic New York City of Just Imagine (1930)





The London of 1950 in High Treason (1929) is what most people think of a futuristic city of the late 1920s, 1930s and 1940s.


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This film reminds me of H G Well's THINGS TO COME in tone (and to a lesser extent) visuals. Cedric Gibbons, the MGM art director (I believe) also contributed to Menzies TTC.

It also shared HGW's basicly pacifist attitude.

Also it was cool seeing Father Knows Best Marcus Welby shacking up with a hot young nurse!

Ooops! I'm wrong! Gibbons is not credited for any art direction, but some of his protogees had an influence.
TTC's art crew was Vincent Korda .... settings designer
Frank Wells .... assistant art director
John Bryan .... assistant art director (uncredited)
Frederick Pusey .... assistant art director (uncredited)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eadie, in response to your note on art deco---

Art Deco Science Fiction
4 May 2004 | by jacksflicks (Hollywood)

There are some film classics that we have almost lost. I don't mean the might-have-beens, like Laughton's "I Claudius," but films that were released and quite successful and are now in grave need of rescue. The hallmark of such films is the terrible quality of the available prints because the master negative is lost. "My Man Godfrey" and "Nothing Sacred" come to mind. And, of course, "Things to Come".

If the abstractions of the art deco aesthetic could be reified into a story, "Things to Come" might be the result. If the Chrysler Building really were a rocket ship and could fly past the moon and stars and comets of art deco friezes...if we could look into those naive mindsets, whose visions of man's destiny were being energized by the discoveries of relativity, atomic energy and deep space...we might indeed embrace the images of "Things to Come".

Some of the scenes may strike us a corny - as might those of Fritz Lang's "Metropolis" - but they are no cornier in their context than those in "2001, a Space Odyssey" or, for that matter, "Starship Troopers". Here is an honest attempt to project the world into the future, not some silly cowboys-in-space flick.

"Things to Come" makes only a couple of demands: first, that we ditch our smug sophistication and presentist prejudices; second, that we have the discipline to see past the print quality. It may take repeated viewings, as it did with me, but in the end you will be rewarded by a unique odyssey, not into our future but into the future of history.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Joyce
Solar Explorer


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
Here is an honest attempt to project the world into the future, not some silly cowboys-in-space flick.

That's exactly why I like films such as MMF. It's creaky but it's earnest. (And...I have to say that I enjoy a few cowboys-in-space flicks now and then, silly or otherwise. Variety, spice of life and all that.)

On Things to Come ... there should be some good prints out there, no? (although - and I could be wrong - there is some lost or jetisoned footage)

Last but not least ... still curious on what people think is the message of MMF. Anti-war? if ya gotta fight, ya gotta fight (and you always gotta fight)? Purposely ambiguous? a muddled mess?

_________________
"There is a planet in the Solar System where the people are so stupid they didn't catch on for a million years that there was another half to their planet." - Kilgore Trout.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
scotpens
Starship Captain


Joined: 19 Sep 2014
Posts: 871
Location: The Left Coast

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Joyce wrote:
On Things to Come ... there should be some good prints out there, no? (although - and I could be wrong — here is some lost or jettisoned footage)

The recent Criterion release of Things to Come was restored from the best-quality film elements available, and it's looking pretty good — especially when compared to the murky TV syndication prints we're used to seeing. Only a few brief shots look like they were blown up from 16mm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gord Green
Galactic Ambassador


Joined: 06 Oct 2014
Posts: 2940
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the message was a bit muddled.

"War is bad! Unless they attack first, then beat the crap outa them!"

The question of chemical (gas) warfare was also whishy washy.

"It's bad for 'them' to use it , but if they do we'll do it too!"

This was filmed and released during a period of public belief on extreme isolationism and non involvement in foreign conflicts. It was not until Pearl Harbor until there was a movement to become involved. (Yes, FDR did champion lend/lease and Alien Exclusion legislation as well as oil and steel embargos on Japan! But publicly the position was isolation.)

This film did foreshadow the movement toward ending the isolationist attitude if physicaly attacked.
Wouldn't a true pacifistic act be to "turn the other cheek"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)


Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17018
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

__________________________________________________

IMDB has several interesting trivia items for this production. Very Happy
__________________________________________________

~ Although produced in 1933, the bulk of the film takes place in 1940; events depicting the start of World War II are, of course, fictional and strictly futuristic, but nonetheless on target as far as the date is concerned

Note from me: Things to Come also predicted WWII — but of course that was no stretch of the imagination, since WWI was still fresh in people's minds, along with the feared a recurrence of that global tragedy.

~ The movie was futuristic in predicting not only World War 2 (with the rise of Hitler and other totalitarian regimes in the early 1930s) but also the popularity of television and telephones with cameras.

Note from me: The prediction of televisions and camera phones is indeed impressive. Very Happy

~ This film is based on a Broadway play of the same title that opened at the Lyceum Theatre, 149 W. 45th St., on October 14, 1932 and ran for 35 performances.

Note from me: I'm sure the look of the Broadway play was very different from the movie, for obvious reasons.]

_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALL SCI-FI Forum Index -> Sci-Fi Movies and Serials from 1900 to 1949 All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group