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Aliens (1986)
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ralfy
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Joined: 23 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, and sorry if I sounded rough. It's just that I find these issues with plots of what are actually very good sci-fi films fascinating.

Also, too bad that Ripley didn't have counsel (given the amount of money they want her to pay and the fact that was stuck with low-paying work because they revoked her license, she would have probably insisted on such). The fact that Burke and Lt. Gorman asked her to join the mission as consultant was a tacit acknowledgment from the company and the government that her account was likely true, and would have been sufficient grounds to have them reinstate her license and give her decades in backpay.

Of course, whether or not she joins the mission would have been based on her realization that she was screwed over by the company once and that they could do it again, and that the real goal of the mission was to recover live aliens or eggs. That said, she would have probably forced them to let her remain on board the Sulaco and consult the team remotely.

Also, the marines appear not to have been briefed properly about the mission, and it turned out that their platoon leader was inexperienced (only a few drops, and most simulated). Given the reports that they were receiving from the colony (i.e., if we accept that it was implausible for the colony to remain silent after Burke instructed them to look for the derelict ship), they would have received more than enough intel about what they were going to confront, and given the stakes involved (i.e., the moolah that the company would have made from the discovery and advances in tech for the military; the derelict ship alone would have been a great prize) both company and government could have sent better-equipped teams, and not just marines but experts in capturing "bugs," together with teams of scientists and even medical personnel (with combat experience, and not just to treat any surviving colonists or to investigate and document the scene but to capture specimens), not to mention devices like drones (they had automated machine guns) and even more androids (perhaps simpler ones with no "fear" chips) to take care of the dirty work.

I don't know if they could have anticipated the presence of reactors and how that would have made their use of weapons dangerous, but presumably a well-prepared group would have collected not just reports from the colony but even blueprints and details about the same from company and government files, and would have prepared accordingly (e.g., bring all sorts of chemical weapons to see which one would work, being prepared to use them or other means in places where there were reactors, and probably even figure out how to turn the reactors off remotely and use other means under their control to provide basic power). All that's likely because they did know where to land and the location of the lab.

About discovering that all of the colonists were huddled in one area (as seen from their locators), why didn't it occur to them that the colonists were captured, especially given the fact that none of the locators moved? At the very least, they could have sent a much smaller team (or something like drones, given the point that they had automated guns), suspecting that there might be aliens in the vicinity.

It was shown that the lab had security cameras. Presumably there were more around the site, which means not only could teams monitor various places using them they would have also had recordings of what took place. And together with the logs from the lab and communications accessed by Ripley to find out what Burke did (the marines didn't bother to check all logs?), they would have received a fuller picture of what transpired (that is, besides what they got from going on the mission).

Again, one might argue that this is all simply "coulda, shouda" but they do reveal inconsistencies, as the company and the government showed that they were capable of being thorough in investigations (especially when profitability was involved), and technologies shown only briefly in the movie revealed that the team could have done much more than what was shown. Remember the robot used by the salvage team to scan Ripley's shuttle at the start of the movie?
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Krel
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralfy, you are treating this as a real situation. As William Goldman wrote, there is a difference between real, real, and movie real. Things that work in real life don't always work in reel life.

Why didn't other ships receive the distress signal? In the novelization and deleted scenes, when Newt's family found the alien ship, it had been damaged in the past, split in-half. This is how Newt's Parents got into the egg chamber.

Why did the company not have any records on sending the Nostromo to it's doom? It was a Cover Your A$$ situation. When the Nostromo disappeared, those involved purged the records. If there is no proof, then it didn't happen.

There is no proof that the Company or Burke told the government the truth, or about any communications from the colony. When Lt. Gorman gave the briefing, you got the impression that the information was new, even to him. You also got the impression that the only reason Ripley was on the mission was as a concession to the Company.

In real life, the Marines would probably have kept both Ripley and Burke on the ship, out of the way, and out of harm's way. But then that wouldn't have made for a very exciting movie.

It is likely that the operation was from the weapons division, or a small group in the division. It is easier to get forgiveness, than permission. And if everything goes pear-shaped, then there's always a records purge as an option.

The Marines seemed to know their way around the colony. This indicates that they had been given floor plans, so they could find their way around. OR. As the colony buildings were all prefab, the Marines could have had past experience in such colonies. Could be both.

Why did they go after the colonist, rather than checking the computer records first? The Marines job was to find the colonists first, investigate second. Also movie real, versus real, real.

The logical thing to do, would have been to establish the existence of the alien ship. Inform those you sent out to look, but not touch. Then send a properly equipped expedition. Safer, less messy, and guaranteed to yield better results. Also easier to keep things secret without the bad publicity, and scrutiny from an eliminated colony.

To me the fact that they didn't do this, and sent an under prepared, and equiped Marine unit indicates that it could very well have been a rouge operation by Burke. Also movie real, versus real, real.

David.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Ralfy, you are treating as a real situation. As William Goldman wrote, there is a difference between real, real, and movie real. Things that work in real life don't always work in reel life.

Why didn't other ships receive the distress signal? In the novelization and deleted scenes, when Newt's family found the alien ship, it had been damaged in the past, split in-half. This is how Newt's Parents got into the egg chamber.

Why did the company not have any records on sending the Nostromo to it's doom? It was a Cover Your A$$ situation. When the Nostromo disappeared, those involved purged the records. If there is no proof, then it didn't happen.

There is no proof that the Company, or Burke told the government the truth, or about any communications from the colony. When Lt. Gorman gave the briefing, you got the impression that the information was new, even to him. You also got the impression that the only reason Ripley was on the mission was as a concession to the Company.

In real life, the Marines would probably have kept both Ripley and Burke on the ship, out of the way, and out of harm's way. But then that wouldn't have made for a very exciting movie.

It is likely that the operation was from the weapons division, or a small group in the division. It is easier to get forgiveness, than permission. And if everything goes pear-shpaed, then there's always a records purge as an option.

The Marines seemed to know their way around the colony. This indicates that they had been given floor plans, so they could find their way around. OR. As the colony buildings were all prefab, the Marines could have had past experience in such colonies. Could be both.

Why did they go after the colonist, rather than checking the computer records first? The Marines job was to find the colonists first, investigate second. Also movie real, versus real, real.

The logical thing to do, would have been to establish the existence of the alien ship. Inform those you sent out to look, but not touch. Then send a properly equipped expedition. Safer, less messy, and guaranteed to yield better results. Also easier to keep things secret without the bad publicity, and scrutiny from an eliminated colony.

To me the fact that they didn't do this, and sent an under prepared, and equiped Marine unit indicates that it could very well have been a rouge operation by Burke. Also movie real, versus real, real.

David.

Take note that all of my points involve what happened in the franchise and given dialogue, etc.

Likely other ships didn't receive the distress signal because there weren't a lot or they were too far away from rock.

I don't see the importance of the next point as it doesn't counter what I said.

The company didn't cover up the directive to re-reoute the Nostromo because the crew knew that, or at least they were reminded of it by Ashe who told them that it was in their contracts: "You better read your contract. Transmissions received in non-commercial lanes...."

There is proof that the company told the gov't what happened, as revealed by Gorman: "All we know is that there's still no contact with the colony and that a xenomorph may be involved."

In addition, it's an operation led by the military, which meant they would have had full intel on the situation and that they were not part of a weapons division: "This operation is under military jurisdiction and Hicks is next in chain of command. Right?"

I don't understand why it would be less exciting if Burke and Ripley were asked to stay on the Sulaco given the presence of Newt, but it would have been more logical for the Marines to send up non-essential personnel as that would mean fewer things for them to secure. Even the company would have approved, as that would have maximized resources to capture alien specimens.

In addition, it's very likely that the military and the gov't knew that the company wanted to do so as part of bio-weapons research as that would directly benefit the latter. That said, what's there to hide? If a company can develop even androids for similar, then why not use alien organisms?

If any civilians were needed, they would have been specialists needed to recover specimens. Anything that the team would have needed from Ripley they already got, as she obviously knew little about the facility, the derelict ship, or even the rock.

About intel, it appears that the team knew little, because Ripley (of all people) had to tell them to draw out plans from the same facility. It's as if they didn't bring their own: "Now get on a terminal and call up some kind of floor plan file. Construction blueprints, maintenance schematics, anything that shows the layout of this place. I want to see air ducts, electrical access tunnels, subbasements. Every possible way into this wing."

About searching for colonists first before checking computer records, Bishop was accessing lab records and even studying the specimens found: "Bishop is hunched over an occular probe doing a dissection of one of the dead parasites."

Your point about accessing the derelict ship first is right, which is why I think it would have been more logical for them to have sent three teams, especially given the importance the company and its military partners placed on alien technology, especially advanced ones. Of course, that's based on the assumption that the colony had been sending transmissions to the company giving the location of the ship and other details.

To me, the point that that they were unprepared and that the company that saw this as important didn't mind looks illogical. More so the idea that Burke masterminded the whole thing, as that would have meant that only he had access to any transmissions, that no one in the board of inquiry, which included top company and board officials, bothered to contact the colony to investigate further, that he was acting independently of the company and the marine team of the military, that they managed to board the Sulaco and leave the space port covertly, and that Hicks was wrong in saying that a rescue mission would have arrived to help them in seventeen days.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some more points I didn't mention, but some of them involve either deleted scenes or descriptions in the script.

In one deleted scene, Simpson (one of the colony officials) points out that it takes two weeks for messages to arrive and to receive a response from the company: "Some honch in a cushy office on Earth says go look at a grid reference in the middle of nowhere, we look. They don't say why, and I don't ask. I don't ask because it takes two weeks to get an answer out here and the answer's always 'don't ask.'"

That means it would have taken a week for a message from the colony to arrive to Earth or the nearby Gateway Station. That would have been enough time for the alien infestation to spread and cause the transmitter, among others, to get knocked out. But that would not have prevented the colony from sending messages several times daily on the conditions experienced after discovery of the derelict ship, including even the location of the ship. Such a major discovery would have merited such.

In addition, as Burke points out, "...the corporation co-financed that colony with the Colonial Administration, against mineral rights. We're getting into a lot of terraforming...'Building Better Worlds.'" That means the gov't was an equal partner of the project and would have been as readily informed as the company about what was happening. Discovery of a derelict ship plus the fact that Gorman had explained to their team what they were up against (on board the Sulaco and as they approached LV426, of all places), then it becomes very difficult to argue that only Burke knew what was going on, especially given the fact that even more agency heads were involved in the board of inquiry: "...there are going to be some heavyweights in there. You got Feds, you got interstellar commerce commission, you got colonial administration, insurance company guys..."
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Krel
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the Marines were not informed of the true situation or the plans for the alien. This is very evident from their reactions after Burke tried to infect Ripley and Newt.

The Marines might not have had detail plans for the colony, but they at least had floor plans. As I stated, they did know their way around the main building.

As Ripley was the main character, she had to be with the Marines, not up on the ship. Movie real, versus real, real.

I really have to watch this movie again.

David.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The team knew that they were on a "bug hunt" and not simply to rescue any surviving colonists. They'd have to be stupid not to think that they were also there to recover specimens, if not to find out more about the derelict ship (i.e., given the fact that Ripley was brought in as an "advisor" meant that they had been fully briefed of her account).

In contrast, Ripley's reactions looked out of place, if not incredulous even before she accepted the job, as she asked Burke for assurance that it was only a rescue mission:

Ripley: "Burke, just tell me one thing. That you're going out there to kill them. Not study. Not bring back. Just burn them out...clean...forever."

Burke: "That's the plan. My word on it."

How could she not put two and two together? The same company has clearly shown itself to be very interested in alien specimen and tech recovery, and at all costs. And for someone who was already screwed once by the same company and threatened to pay for damages ("Look at it from our perspective. You freely admit to detonating the engines of, and thereby destroying, an M-Class star-freighter. A rather expensive piece of hardware...Forty-two million in adjusted dollars. That's minus payload, of course.") as well as get demoted ("It is the finding of this board of inquiry that Warrent Officer Ellen Ripley, NOC-14672. has acted with questionable judgment and is unfit to hold an ICC license as a commercial flight officer."), she would have been incredibly gullible to rely on Burke for all info, which is shown as she is repeatedly surprised as the mission unfolds:

Ripley: "You never said anything about an android being here! Why not?"

Burke: "Well, it didn't occur to me. It's been policy for years to have a synthetic on board."

It's probably because she thought that the situation was the same as it was six decades ago, when crews like hers didn't know that synths were used. But even the marines knew that Bishop was such, as they decided to ask Bishop to troll Hudson with the knife trick. It's as if Ripley sticks out like a sore thumb, and yet ends up being the least incompetent among the lot.

More than that, it is very likely that the marines knew that Bishop's main role was to recover specimens for the company, which is why he started working in the lab right away, and continued doing so even after the team gets clobbered, to Ripley's surprise:

Ripley: "I want those specimens destroyed as soon as you're done with them. You understand?"

...

Bishop: "Mr. Burke [has] instructions that they were to be kept alive in stasis for return to the company labs. He was very specific."

...

Ripley: "Burke!"

Even before leaving, Ripley could have easily figured it out by getting basic info on the team: Burke on board and briefing her, Bishop on board (which she didn't know probably because she relied on Burke, but which everyone--including the marines--knew, and which she would have easily suspected as the science officer, which would have reminded her of Ash), a company that screwed her already once and clearly showed initiative in specimen recovery, the near-absence of a medical team to help any colonists they rescued (they only had Dietrich, who was probably only a medic, and one medic for the whole team and 157 colonists?), and a colony that had happened to be a major project of both the company and the government.

These points plus others show that the company took recovery of specimens for bioweapons research and more very seriously, to the point that they issued two directives: that crews of all of their ships had to re-route to investigate anything related to such on penalty of forfeiture of all benefits by the crew if they disobeyed, and that crews are expendable. And as the military would have been one of the primary clients of outcome from such research, it would be reasonable to surmise that the government had a stake in the same, too.

Given such importance, it looks out of place that they would send an ill-informed and unprepared team to investigate the issue, with Burke tagging along and deceptively planning sabotage, if necessary, to bring specimens back. That's because there's a possibility that the team would fail for such a reason, and with that, Burke, too.

Understandably, Ripley is the main character, and because of that, she has to appear prominently in the film. But that doesn't counter any of the points above, and if any, makes a movie less believable. That implies that it's not really an issue of "movie real" vs. "real real" but understanding that even works of fiction strive for internal consistency.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Ralfy , I continue to be extremely impressed with your careful research, your detailed analysis, and your fine presentation of the conclusions you've reached.

I'm damned if I can find a single contention you've prsented which I disagree with, based on the wealth of supporting details you've provided.

I won't say that my respect for this move his gone down, but I'm a bit embarrassed by the fact that none of these narrative issues ever occurred to me, despite having seen the movie fairly often. Embarassed

Great job, Corporal Ralfy . When a plot has problems, there's only one way to deal with 'em!

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure!
Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Bless my soul, I owe a HUGE apology to Krel for not including him in my "thank you" post above! Shocked

The long and fascination exchange between Krel and Ralfy above represents one of the very best discussions which All Sci-Fi is privileged to present! Very Happy

Frankly, their detailed examination of the elements of this movie is so complex I was actually hard-pressed to follow some of it! I managed to keep up with the discussion, but I had to work at it!

And the fact that both these gentlemen wrote their comments so well (without making dozens of typos, like I would have!) made me proud to have these guys as members of All Sci-Fi.

Just for the record, I'd like to say that I taught Krel and Ralfy everything they know! Very Happy

(Okay, so I'd LIKE to say that . . . but I'd be lying like certain folks who work in Washington.) Embarassed

Anyway, I sincerely hope that Krel, Ralfy, and all our other members will continue to share their opinions about science fiction in every form on a regular basis. Very Happy

These kinds of discussions are exactly why I've fought to keep All Sci-Fi alive and well for the last fourteen years! Cool

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thinking Outside the "Plot"!
________________________________

I've often thought that the next stage in this successful franchise would be a story about how the Alien race's home planet was discovered . . . and it had a queen ABOVE the queen we see in this movie! Shocked

~ A Question for the Members: What if this Ultimate Uber Queen was even more intelligent than mankind — and she deeply regretted all the deaths of the humans who died just to serve the procreating of her species? Shocked

Then again . . .

What if her true intention was to deceive mankind and turn Earth and her colonies into a massive food source for her ruthless face?

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know Bud, I never thought of them as having a "home planet", no more than you could say any particular place was the original home of bees.

I conceived this alien species as perhaps originally evolving on some planet, planetoid, moon or asteroid someplace, but being spread all throughout the galaxy and perhaps beyond into the universe. Its' ability to adapt to foreign genetic material would make it a galactic survivor and as able to infiltrate and adapt an ecosystem as cosmic kudzu!

There may be strains of these "aliens" throughout the galaxy!

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ralfy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a reference to their home world here:

https://www.avpcentral.com/xenomorph-prime

Also, I'm suddenly reminded of Starship Troopers.
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ralfy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more details about the movie, in reference to screen caps of the Nostromo crew:

Capt. Dallas worked for The Tyrell Corporation, which is the main business involved in Blade Runner.

Lambert was a transgender.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_F-gAALZk
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
You know Bud, I never thought of them as having a "home planet", no more than you could say any particular place was the original home of bees.

Seriously? Confused

Gee, Gord, doesn't every living creature have to have an "origin"? I mean, they can't just simultaneously burst into existence all over the universe, can they? Bees evolved like everything else, right? Shocked

For example, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Frankly that's a no-brainer. First there was an egg that had an embryo inside which was a mutated form of the creature who laid it. The mother-creature was very chicken-like . . . but not quite a bona fide chicken.

But its "ugly duckling" offspring was the first true chicken! Ta-daaa! Very Happy

So, viewed that way, the egg with a chicken-embryo that was laid by a chicken-like creature came first.

There ya go! I've answered that age-old question. Easy, eh? Wink

By the way, I do NOT believe in evolution.

I'm an agnostic who suspects that the universe was created by a group of intelligent (but completely dispassionate) godlike beings. And they did it more-or-less just for fun. Shocked

Let's call these beings the Demon Gods. Powerful, yes. Kind and loving? Hell no . . .

This would explain the obvious evidence of intelligent design in the universe — as well as the obvious existence of the cruelty and injustice we all have to endure.

So . . . there ya go again! I've answered the question of whether or not there's a God. Very Happy

The answer is — yes-and-no. There's more than one god . . . but none of them are very nice. Sad

And just to bring this discussion back to Alien, if the universe was created by my hypothetical Demon Gods, it would certainly include horrible creatures like the ones in this movie! Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read something interesting the other day. The full-size Queen Alien puppet was too large for the freight elevator. To film the scene, they had to remove the Queen's tail, and they still had to remove part of the back of the elevator. They hid the alterations with a black back cloth, smoke, and lighting.

David.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

GREAT MOVIES FROM THE 1980s!

The 1980s turned out to be a sort of 2nd Golden Age of Science Fiction. This movie is an example. Here's why.
________________________________

Another parallel between the Golden Age of Science Fiction in the 1950s and the 2nd Golden Age in the 1980s was the way the number of sci-fi releases increased between 1985 and 1986. Cool

In 1985 there were 10 releases. In 1986 there were 16.

In 1955 there were 15 sci-fi movies, But in 1956 there were 28! Shocked

The trend during the 80s towards lighthearted releases continued, but Aliens is the one that has stood the test of time. Another major release from 1986 with an adult theme was The Fly.

The best examples of the family friendly films include —

Howard the Duck

Invaders from Mars

Short Circuit

SpaceCamp

Star Trek: The Voyage Home
________________________________

What movies do you remember from 1986, and which ones were your favorites? Cool

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