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Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1978)
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think they shared our values, but only after they came to know us over time.

The fact that they physicly resembled humans is not unusual. There is a anthropological concept of ontogeny, that form follows function. That is why birds resemble bats and flying foxes as well as insects and any flying organisms.

To achieve intelligence requires certain attributes. One is the ability to manipulate the environment (fingers or tentacles).

The other is an environment that is conducive to technology. (Dolphins may be as smart as humans, but without the ability to discover fire their chances of technological advancement is very limited!)

ALIENS would think in a very different way than we do.
That is my point. Moral behavior is not a universal concept.

Logic, however, is a universality. As Aristotle laid out the validity of the tautological argument to be as true as 1+1=2 it would apply universally . Thus mathematics---AND musical tonalities----Think the Golden Cord here---would also be a universal point of commonality._Musical notes. therefore would be a point of commonality with our alien cousins.

I guess the point of this movie is, like 2001, is that it is to be experienced and felt on a visceral level. Don't overthink it!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
I guess the point of this movie is, like 2001, that it is to be experienced and felt on a visceral level. Don't overthink it!

Ah, yes. The old "park your brain in the lobby" idea. Just watch the movie. Don't over-think it.

I've never quite understood how people manage to do that. To me that's like sitting down to a gourmet meal and then being told, "Just enjoy the appearance of this lovely food. Don't over-taste it." Confused

Please don't misunderstand. I don't analyze movies like Oklahoma the way I do the science fiction films I love. But the point of Oklahoma is, of course, to treat the eyes and ears to a literal "cinematic landscape painting".

That's not the case with either this movie or 2001.

The point of Close Encounters of the Third Kind is to ponder the questions "Are we alone?" and "If we aren't alone, are they friends or foes?" My whole post was meant to address that second question. Your earlier post had this statement near the beginning of the text.


Gord wrote:
We tend to put our own human, enlightened notions onto the aliens. We expect that our own perceptions of ethics and morality extend to any other advanced beings that may exist. Ethics and morality are hardly universal.

You're right, ethics and morality aren't universal. You're also right that we tend to expect our ethics and morality to be shared by other sentient beings. And I did acknowledged that point several times in my post.

But I clearly stated at the very beginning that I was examining these specific aliens, and I was looking for clues which indicated whether or not they did share our ethics and morality.

After all, just because these concepts aren't universal doesn't mean they're never shared! It just means sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't. I think I made a good case for the idea that the aliens in Close Encounters of the Third Kind did in fact share those qualities with us.

So, even though you're making very valid statements about aliens in general, you seem to be ignoring my contention that in the case of these specific aliens, there are more similarities than differences.

And I strongly disagree with this statement.


Gord wrote:
I do think they shared our values, but only after they came to know us over time.

Forgive me, my friend, but you've got it backwards! Shocked

The aliens didn't come here and learn their values from us! They already shared our values as part of their own basic nature. And because of this, they decided to develop a relationship with a species they decided were actually kindred spirits.

After all, what did we see in the movie which might indicate they weren't friendly, playful, caring creatures (who love to drive fast and play loud music Cool ) before they "came to know us over time"?

As you said earlier:


Gord wrote:
How can we possibly try to impose our concepts on a culture thousands, perhaps millions of years beyond ours?

I submit, sir, that ethics and values might be more universal than we realize. These aliens clearly share the same morality we have. That's why this movie is about a language barrier — not a clash between to different moral codes!

So, clearly we didn't teach these ancient beings to be more like us. My entire premise, Gord, is that they've been that way for many millennium, and they've studied us to find out if we shared their values!

In the end, we passed the test, so we were invited to join them among the stars.

I agree that this movie should be experienced and felt on a visceral level — but it should also be carefully contemplated because of the profound concepts it offers and the deep questions it asks.

Good science fiction is impossible to "over-think" . . . any more than a gourmet meal can be "over-tasted". Laughing

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I strongly disagree with this statement.

Gord wrote: I do think they shared our values, but only after they came to know us over time.

Perhaps I should have said:

"I do think they realized that they shared our values, but only after they came to know us over time."

I'm saying that THESE aliens took some time to realise the points of commonality with our species. They didn't vivasect, but they did "catch and release" which could be viewed as an ethical act that meets their needs (information) without seriously harming the subject.

About "experience", don't overthink----The point is that any alien logic or reasons for how they act would be incomprehensible to us. We have enough difficulty understanding ourselves and our differences. Heck, Republicans can't understand Democrats and vice versa! We're trying to comprehend how terrorists think!

I could go on.....But the point is these alien's are inscrutable....and that's part of the point made by the writers and director of this film! It's designed to be questionable by the viewers and-----It worked!

Look at us!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Think about what it would be like if you woke up one morning and it was forty or fifty years later. Everyone you know is gone. You have no references to deal with the changed society because of the events which have passed. Even language would be hard due to the changes.

Obviously David and I agree that the next time that big gaudy "disco ball" mother ship enters our atmosphere we should shoot it down and imprison the aliens for a few decades!

"Ha! How does it feel now, you sexless naked little albinos!"

Concerning the poor "returnees", I think with the right managers and agents they might make out pretty good in our society. Every one of them could publish a bestselling book about their experiences (ghost written by someone like . . . oh . . me! Very Happy)

The ones who had a knack for public speaking could rake in big bucks on the national lecture circuit! The ones who didn't care for speaking before large crowds could grant interviews with the press . . . at $10,000 a pop!

And think of the product endorsements! They could appear in commercials for a king's ransom!


"Hi, I'm 1st Lieutenant Ricky Rogers, the WWII fighter pilot who was abducted back in 1945! In those days, we didn't have Viagra, and guys like me sometimes had to suffer the embarrassment of erectile dysfunction."





"But now I can be locked and loaded anytime I need to! And even though I don't look it, I'm actually 60 years old! So, don't let erectile dysfunction keep you from shouting 'bombs away' whenever you hear the Call to Duty from your wife or girl friend!

Take Viagra . . . and never run out of ammo again!"




_________________
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think language would be an insermountable problem after 50 years.

Sentence structure and syntax would be the same, vocabulary and adjusting to new idioms would be the only issue and they could be picked up quickly.

100 or 200 years would be more of a challenge. Look at written works from the Civil War era and you see what I mean.

500 years would be much more an issue. Elizabethian and Shakespearian language would be an example, but even there the accents would be very different.

However, I think what the real issue is that the aliens would not have figured that in their "catch and release" program!
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mach7
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Joined: 23 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to see CE3K last night with my wife.

I enjoyed it as much as I did 40 years ago. For me this movie stands the test of time very well.

One thing I had to keep telling myself was that there is
NO computer generated SPX in this film. This was "old school" SPX at its best and it stands up to anything done today.

Bud, your insights on the film are all true! Once you spell them out, its obvious. Reading you and Gord's posts has been enlightening and entertaining! I see both points of view.

One thing is for sure, I would like to sit down with both of you over a beer and see where the conversation goes!

As for alien ethics, Read the Niven short story "The Warriors" about humans first contact with the Kizinti, and then the Niven/Pournell book "The Mote in Gods Eye".

Lastly I refer to what Terry Gilliam says about Spielberg. He is the master of directing a scene, but rubbish directing a movie.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mach7 wrote:
One thing is for sure, I would like to sit down with both of you over a beer and see where the conversation goes!

As for alien ethics, Read the Niven short story "The Warriors" about humans first contact with the Kizinti, and then the Niven/Pournell book "The Mote in Gods Eye".

The first round is on me! Very Happy

I'm a huge Niven fan, and I've read the stories you mentioned, along with most of his other work, as well.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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mach7
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reread the Mote in Gods Eye every year. It's that good.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I like to imagine that those of us on this site are kind of like a bunch of guys and gals sitting around a table just talk'in.

Sideline discussions and one-on-ones occur regularly and the camaraderie is most evident! We all have areas of expertise and interest that make discussions a movable feast of ideas when we are together.

I gotta thank Bud for providing this magnificent outlet for our exchange of our dreams and wonders of all things sci-fi!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
Sideline discussions and one-on-ones occur regularly and the camaraderie is most evident! We all have areas of expertise and interest that make discussions a movable feast of ideas when we are together.

Thanks, Gordon! Not only do I agree, I like the way you phrased that. Very Happy

And it underscores my defense of "off topic discussions" and why I regard each thread as conversations which should be allowed to go in different directions whenever a member's comments suggest ideas which inspire new comments from the folks who read them.

Someday technology will turn skyping into virtual reality get-togethers, with each of us wearing goggles like the ones used in Earth 2, the 1994 series. We won't just see our friends on a computer display, we'll see them sitting nearby as if they're in the room with us. Cool



___________


Such devices are being developed right now.





~ This is my girlfriend, Vera! Wink Well, actually . . . she's VR. And imaginary. Embarassed
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


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scotpens
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:

Someday technology will turn skyping into virtual reality get-togethers, with each of us wearing goggles like the ones used in Earth 2, the 1994 series. We won't just see our friends on a computer display, we'll see them sitting nearby as if they're in the room with us. Cool

And we'll still use plain old voice-only communication for 99 percent of our phone conversations, just like we do now. Telephony with real-time 2-way video was a staple of sci-fi for decades. Now it's reality, but how many people actually use it on a regular basis? Services like Skype and Facetime are toys for millennials and computer nerds.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
And the Alien hand gestures, what did they really mean? Come with us, you tastes like chicken?

I was re-reading the post on this thread and found the comment about the hand gestures. It cracked me up! Laughing

Yes, what hell DID they mean!

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~ The Space Children (1958)
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Krel
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotpens wrote:
And we'll still use plain old voice-only communication for 99 percent of our phone conversations, just like we do now. Telephony with real-time 2-way video was a staple of sci-fi for decades. Now it's reality, but how many people actually use it on a regular basis? Services like Skype and Facetime are toys for millennials and computer nerds.

Oh my! How did I miss this one.

Back in the 90's I read an article on what happened to the video phone. The short answer is that nobody wanted one.

The Bell picture phone needed two lines, one for audio, and one for video. Two phone lines would have to be strung to all homes and businesses. A VERY, VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE procedure to rewire the American phoneline network. The audio line could be used separately, a video call would be more expensive.

The phones themselves took up a lot of room. They were in two components. A video module, which having a picture tube, stretched back a ways. The second module was the phone component, which was larger than the common home phone. People would have needed to find space where the components would fit.

At the 1964 Worlds Fair, Bell demonstrated their picture phone. They asked people what they thought of the phone, and everyone thought that they were fantastic! They then asked people if they would like one in their home, and the majority answered, horrified: Oh no! I wouldn't want anyone to see me in my home!

The Bell representatives pointed out that you didn't need to use the video feature, and if they did, they could turn the camera off. The reply was: Oh no! I wouldn't want anyone to see me in my home!

That is why we didn't get video phones back in the 60's. Ma Bell wasn't going to go through the expense of stringing the video lines from sea to shining sea, if nobody was going to want or use one.

It wasn't the end for the picture phone. Uncle Sam and some large corporations had video phone installed at select locations. But the general populace, just didn't want one.

I'm not too sure that the majority of the U.S. population would want one today. Besides, with the killing of Ma Bell and the hodge podge of phone companies today, could anyone of them afford the expense??

David.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course we realized that it was not always necessary to see the face of who we were conversing with (Darn it...I just got out of the shower!) , but todays smart phones enable us to either skype it or to send pictures, data files, video etc.

Looking at what the greatest changes to our society in the past 50 years has been , It's undoubtedly...communication.

Flat screen high definition TV and streaming over the internet...multiple news channel outlets...any music or video available on demand...Heck, fifty years ago a discussion qroup like All-Scifi would be a bunch of geeks sending postcards to each other!

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krel wrote:
Richard wrote:
It was an 'evil big brother' film with the spunky, plucky every-American guy getting his big wish handed to him at Devil's Tower.

Now that brings up a good question. Was it his wish, his desire, or was it something the Aliens did to him?

After the exposure to the Alien light beams, he changed. An Alien induced change? A compulsion? It had a definite, visible physical effect on him. Is it far fetched to believe that it also altered his brain in some way? He was definitely being compelled.

That's a great question, David, and I'd have to lean a bit towards the idea that Richard Dreyfus' character actually had a genuine curiosity about the universe, but he was too busy being a father, a husband, and a hard-working employee to think much about "deep stuff".

But then his first experience with the alien ship at the train crossing was a giant "wake up" call that the universe was a very strange place. He saw the small alien ship and all the wacky things it caused — like the way gravity went crazy inside the truck and "rolled him over", etc.

But there's also that moment when he acts paralyzed and lurches a few times, which apparently was the moment with the aliens downloaded the Devil's Tower obsession into his brain.

I think that's the most likely answer to your question, David. Richard's response to the experience was caused by his own intelligence and latent curiosity, in combination with his urgent need to figure out what his obsession with the Devil's Tower shapes really meant.

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~ The Space Children (1958)
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