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The Moon is RED ! (OR soon will be!

 
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject: The Moon is RED ! (OR soon will be! Reply with quote

from Yahoo News:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hell-china-doing-dark-side-094323325.html



When the 22-year-old, U.S.-led International Space Station finally craps out some time in the late 2020s or early 2030s, Tiangong could become the only permanent habitat in low Earth orbit. If the United States wants to maintain a significant human presence over Earth after the ISS, it might have no choice but to ask China for permission to embark.



That would make Tiangong the “de facto international space station,” Johnson-Freese argued. Neither NASA nor the Chinese space agency responded to requests for comment.



“China is in a no-lose situation,” Johnson-Freese added via email. “It can ‘beat’ the U.S. (back) to the Moon—or not—but soon thereafter be able to say anything the U.S. can do, we can do, too.”



To be clear, the United States isn’t standing still in space. NASA still leads the International Space Station and in recent years convinced Congress to keep the station in service as long as its basic components were safe and economical.



The U.S. space agency is also deploying a new space telescope and sending probes across the solar system as part of an ever-expanding search for extraterrestrial life.



And then there’s the moon. NASA for years has mulled returning human explorers to the lunar surface for the first time since 1972. Not only is there plenty of science to be done, but the moon could also function as a staging base for astronauts heading to Mars. To say nothing of the commercial value of the moon’s minerals.

Last year, the Trump administration slapped an arbitrary 2024 deadline on a new manned lunar landing. That year, of course, represents the close of a possible second term for Trump. Experts actually tend to agree 2024 is possible, but only if Congress coughs up $30 billion—and if there are zero problems developing all the hardware a moon landing requires. Tools like a new heavy rocket, a manned capsule, and a lander.

Rather than flying astronauts directly to the moon, NASA wants to build a lunar space station that could support both moon landings and future Mars missions. That complicates an American return to the moon and underscores the difference between the U.S. and Chinese approaches to space exploration.

“What China has that the U.S. has not, is long-term program-sustainability,” Johnson-Freese said. “The U.S. human exploration program has been operating in fits and starts because each new administration wants to put its stamp on whatever exploration program is announced, with a timetable, but often missing the necessary budget to make it actually feasible.”

Trump’s Moon shot has already shown signs of falling apart. Developing the manned lander was always the riskiest part, according to John Logsdon, a professor emeritus of political science and international affairs at George Washington University and a former NASA adviser. NASA hasn’t built one in nearly half a century.

Is This Icy Moon Our Best Chance to Find Alien Life?

Wary of throwing good money after bad, Congress approved only half of the billion dollars NASA wanted for the mission in 2020. “Our appetite doesn’t match our allocations,” Logsdon told The Daily Beast.

China’s more deliberate journey into space could be an attractive model for other, smaller space-faring countries. For decades, the United States has been the world leader in space, organizing other nations—including rivals like Russia—to explore the galaxy for the benefit of all humankind.

That could change as the competing moon missions—and the geopolitical fault lines they reflect—come into clearer focus.

“As U.S. leadership continues to erode under President Trump, other nations, especially Japan and the E.U., may begin to consider acting more independently and join China in more substantial cooperative space projects,” Gregory Kulacki, a space expert with the Massachusetts-based Union of Concerned Scientists, told The Daily Beast.

It could be decades before the end-game is clear, Christopher Impey, a University of Arizona astronomer, told The Daily Beast. “If you take the long view, which the Chinese always do, in 50 to 100 years we will be living in the solar system and there will be a substantial economic activity off-Earth,” he said.

“They want to be first,” Impey added of the Chinese, “and they want to be in the driver’s seat for that future.”

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________________

I've read various articles about why NASA has never built rotating space stations, some of which stated that the rotation would put too much stress on the structure.

However, this excerpt from the Wikipedia article sounds a bit more optimistic.
________________________________________

History

Both scientists and science fiction writers have thought about the concept of a rotating wheel space station since the beginning of the 20th century. Konstantin Tsiolkovsky wrote about using rotation to create an artificial gravity in space in 1903. Herman Potočnik introduced a spinning wheel station with a 30-meter diameter in his Problem der Befahrung des Weltraums (The Problem of Space Travel). He even suggested it be placed in a geostationary orbit.

In the 1950s, Wernher von Braun and Willy Ley, writing in Colliers Magazine, updated the idea, in part as a way to stage spacecraft headed for Mars. They envisioned a rotating wheel with a diameter of 76 meters (250 feet). The 3-deck wheel would revolve at 3 RPM to provide artificial one-third gravity. It was envisaged as having a crew of 80.






In 1959, a NASA committee opined that such a space station was the next logical step after the Mercury program. The Stanford torus, proposed by NASA in 1975, is an enormous version of the same concept, that could harbor an entire city.

NASA has never attempted to build a rotating wheel space station, for several reasons. First, such a station would be very difficult to construct, given the limited lifting capability available to the United States and other spacefaring nations.

Assembling such a station and pressurizing it would present formidable obstacles which, although not beyond NASA's technical capability, would be beyond available budgets.

Second, NASA considers the present space station, the ISS, to be valuable as a zero gravity laboratory, and its current microgravity environment was a conscious choice.

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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Krel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The von Braun and Willy Ley space station was a giant balloon. After inflation, it would be covered by metal panels. The interior decks would hang from cables. A modern version could fill the balloon with a self-hardening foam.

One consideration with a rotating station is stability. People and equipment moving about could affect the rotation as the weight shifts. One solution considered was a series of water tanks, where water could be pumped as a counter balance. Modern computer controlled stabilizing rockets could be a solution.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

That's a great description of the engineering techniques required to construct a rotating space station, David. And Gord's post includes the fact that the ISS is supposedly going to "finally crap out some time in the late 2020s or early 2030s".

We need permanent space stations which provide a reasonable amount of artificial gravity to prevent the health problems that zero gravity causes. And we need large well-populated space communities to carry on for mankind in case a large asteroid hit earth.

I admire the way the Chinese are taking these important concepts more seriously than America is. And the recent demonstrations of just how foolishly partisan our Congress is proves that we're not likely to get our act together the way we should.

Oh, well. Maybe China will won't insist on exclude all other nationalities when they build more impressive space stations than we seem likely to. Sad

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One major problem with a rotating station is also maintaining the air-tight integrity of the seal between the rotating area of the station and the "non-rotating" docking area.

2001 ASO solved this problem in two ways.

The station rotated in it's entirety. Docking crafts spun to meet the stations rotation to enter the docking bays.

BUT, it also answered the question of how to do it on a single craft. The Discovery's answer was to have the rotating centrifuge on the INTERIOR of the ship, thereby eliminating the problem of having secure seals between the rotating and the stationary parts of the craft. Although, as shown in the film, the rotation was too slow to in reality achieve enough centrifiigle force to supply significant "gravity". It would have required at least three times more the rotation to get to even 1/2 G.

Still, I think that one thing has to be solved before a real long duration space voyage can occur and that is how to provide enough "gravity" to prevent muscle and bone deteriation. Centrfigle force seems to be the best way to go.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
BUT, it also answered the question of how to do it on a single craft. The Discovery's answer was to have the rotating centrifuge on the INTERIOR of the ship, thereby eliminating the problem of having secure seals between the rotating and the stationary parts of the craft.

Still, I think that one thing has to be solved before a real long duration space voyage can occur and that is how to provide enough "gravity" to prevent muscle and bone deteriation. Centrfigle force seems to be the best way to go.

Gord, you've done it again! Very Happy

I never thought of a wheel-shaped space station with an interior section that rotated, instead of the entire structure. That's brilliant!

The speed of the rotating section could be varied by the motors which cause the rotation. I suppose the outer shell could be prevented from rotating in the opposite direction by gyroscopes. And if the bearings or wheels that allowed the inner section to rotate were efficient enogh, the entire would only need a small amount of force to keep it rotating, This would be power expenditure would be as too great.

Wait a minute . . . here's a thought! Very Happy

Have TWO rotating sections positioned one on top of the other — but they rotate in opposite directions, thus canceling each other's effect on the outer shell and allowing the gyros to easily keep it stationary relative to the space around it!

The basic appearance is similar to the 2001: A Space Odyssey station, except that it employs your "interior rotating ring" idea in both sections.




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Last edited by Bud Brewster on Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Krel
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Disney/von Braun space station had docking on the center axis, the shuttle would spin to match the station, like in 2001: ASO.

I can't remember where I read it, but one version of a wheel station had center axis docking a different way. The shuttle would dock in a non-rotating cage. After the docking the shuttle, docked in the cage would be spun up to match the station's rate of rotation.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Gentlemen, this discussion has fueled my enthusiasm for rotating space stations! Very Happy

Your comments have solved the major objections to the concept and made it obvious that this is clearly the way to go when it comes to permanent communities in orbit around the Earth. Very Happy

All the articles I've read about the billions of dollars such projects would cost clearly ignore the fact that all that money would be given to American industries which employ American workers.

Those workers would spend that money to buy goods and services from American companies, and this would further stimulate the American economy.

How is that bad, guys? Confused

This worked like a charm in the 1960s when NASA was gung-ho with the Apollo program, but it all collapsed the day the last Apollo mission lifted off and many of the NASA employees got pink slips! That was caused by Congress when they cut the funding.

We need a president who understands science and realizes that space programs stimulate the economy, energize American industries, and encourage American kids to stay in school so they can become part of our exciting plans to venture into space!

Please tell me you agree with me about this, guys! Shocked

America seems to be drowning in ignorance, and we should all be willing to do what we can to stop it!

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly politicians have learned that ignorant people are easy to manipulate and control.

David.
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Unfortunately, recent events in Washington has certainly proven that to be true. Sad

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Krel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud Brewster wrote:
Unfortunately, recent events in Washington has certainly proven that to be true. Sad

RECENT!?! This process stretches back over 50 years! It's just been building up steam in the last decade.

David.
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