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Proposed Sinbad Movie.
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Pow
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Proposed Sinbad Movie. Reply with quote

Sinbad and the Seven Wonders of the World was an unrealized subject considered by Ray Harryhausen in 1981 immediately after his Clash of the Titans movie.

Synopsis: Sinbad attends the coronation of the Caliph of Egypt who sends him on a quest to assemble a small gold pyramid, the sections of which are hidden within the seven wonders located in the four corners of the ancient world.

1. The Pharos (Lighthouse) in Alexandria where Sinbad meets Ali Baba.

2. The pyramids of Giza where Ali Baba discovers the entrance by using the word 'sesame.'

3. Within the Temple of Zeus, the giant statue of the god created by Phidias comes to life after Sinbad takes the pyramid section from its hiding place beneath the throne.

4. In Rhodes Sinbad finds the submerged head of the famous Colossus of Rhodes statue. Inside the head hides the dragon of Rhodes, a huge deadly eel.

5. In Halicarnassus at the Mausoleum, Sinbad faces frightening skeletal horses.

6. In Ephesus Sinbad battles the Amazons and their goddess Hectae.

7. Finally a journey to Babylon and the hanging gardens where Sinbad locates the final section of the golden pyramid which allows him to assemble it into the book of the dead.

Ray thought that perhaps the cost factor of shooting this idea at the actual locations in Egypt, Greece, Turkey, South America, Jordan, and Mexico would have been prohibitive.
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray would have done a magnificent job with this!
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thanks, Pow! Very Happy

My first reaction is that the story's basic premise isn't something that would hold the audience's interest as well as Ray's three best color movies; Jason, Sinbad, and Mysterious Island.

Sinbad is a quest to provide Sokurah with the potion he needs to restore the shrunken princess. The audience is rooting for Sinbad and really wants the princess to be restored.

Jason is a straight-forward quest to get the Golden Fleece, which has magical powers and will cause Zues to favor Jason's stolen kingdom when he takes it back from Pelias, who murderered Jason's father and mother.

The audience is rooting for Jason and really wants him to kick Pelias' ass. (We would have loved seeing that in a sequel!)

Mysterious Island is a tale of survival, with a brave band of castaways on an island with strange creatures. The audience is rooting for the castaways and really wants them to escape from the island before the volcano blows up.

But this unmade Sinbad move lacks focus. Sinbad is sent out by Egypt's ruler to get pieces of a puzzle which, when assembled, become the Book of the Dead.

Who exactly are we supposed to be rooting for in this story? Sinbad is doing a favor for the Egyptian ruler, who apparently wants the Book of the Dead to resurrect somebody.

I know I'm judging the plot based on a summary, and perhaps the movie would provide a more emotionally compelling reason for Sinbad's quest. If that's the case, my objections might be unfounded.

But I was able to summarize the three movies above and show that they had stories which are both easy to understand and relate to.

Perhaps the Book of the Dead was needed to bring back a murdered princess Sinbad loved . . . or his beloved wife . . . or the Son of Sinbad! Very Happy



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you, Bud, without more details the motivation for this quest for Sinbad and his crew doesn't sound compelling at all.

I love the concept of making the film revolve around all of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It has never been done before to my knowledge.

The pyramids have shown up in historical movies; and there is a "B" movie involving the Colossus of Rhodes. But other than that the Seven Wonders have not been featured all in on single movie, only documentaries. Talk about ambitious.

One issue would be just how many of the Seven Wonders were actually intact when the Sinbad character was supposed to exist? I'm guessing not many, if any. And I'd want to see these wonders at the height of their glory and not as ruins.

Would the answer be some kinda time travel movie where scientists & historians journey back through time to witness the wonders as they originally existed? Then how would Ray work in his mythological creatures in a science fiction film?

If Ray wished to make a Sinbad film then perhaps he could travel in time via supernatural methods instead of scientific ones.

As huge a fan and admirer as I am of Ray's work, he could repeat himself in his productions.

The idea of having the Zeus statue come to life reminds me too much of the astounding Talos scene in his epic masterpiece Jason and the Argonauts. The skeleton horse sequence reminds me of his use of skeletons in The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, and the skeleton army in JATA.

I loved both movies and both skeleton scenes were magnificent! I dunno if a third skeleton scene---even with making it a horse this time---would have seemed so fresh and original.

I wonder if instead of making it a Sinbad movie, instead a Jason with his Argonauts film would have been a better choice? Wouldn't the Jason character have co-existed around the same time as the Seven Wonders when they were all intact? Sinbad would have come along centuries later, but Jason was supposed to live in ancient Greece.

We also already had 3 Sinbad movies by that time.

True, Clash of the Titans was also a period piece involving ancient Greek characters, so a Jason movie following right on its heels would be Ray doing another Greek myth movie.

However, Clash of the Titans was a big box office hit for Ray & his producer Charles Schneer. Maybe the time to produce another Greek tale is right away? Strike while the iron is hot.

Perhaps Perseus & Pegasus from COTT join up with Jason on this quest, or at least they encounter one another at one of the ancient wonders for a sequence.

My other thought is that instead of Ray possibly creating random creatures for the movie that he do research.

How about reading about the historical creature mythology from each country that one of the seven wonders was actually located in? Then create a creature appropriate to that country and ancient wonder site's locale.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

As usual, Mike, you've done some stellar thinking on the subject at hand! Cool

Every time you make a great post like that it just sparks a flurry of new ideas in my own brain, all of which are inspired by your imaginative concepts! Very Happy

Okay, so you've sold me on the idea that the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (<— link) should be the various destinations for Sinbad's globe-hopping, time-traveling quest to bring back seven magical objects which were hidden away to keep them from falling into "the wrong hands" (as they say).

You're suggestion to have Sinbad (along with his crew and his ship) be transported magically to the times and places of the Seven Wonders is perfect!

I found this chart on Wikipedia which shows the dates of the Seven Wonders.






The fact that the Great Pyramid is the oldest of the Seven Wonders (2,000 BC), and the Lighthouse at Alexandria is the youngest (280 BC) suggests that Sinbad's journey would start around 700 AD — which is when the Sinbad stories take place — and travel progressively backwards in time until he reaches the Great Pyramid and succeeds in collecting the last piece of the golden pyramid so he can return it to man who sent him off on his dangerous quest — As-Saffah, who was the actual Caliph of Egypt from 750–754 AD!

(Seriously, guys! I looked it up. Golly, I just love the internet!) Cool

The fact that five of the Seven Wonders are Greek means we're merging "Sinbad" with the ancient Grecian world, the guys who built the structures shown below — a place I visited twice while I was in the Air Force, stationed in Germany!






So, to make this story work, let's add a powerful-but-kindly old Arabian wizard to the ship's crew. He aids Sinbad in this epic journey by making "time trave" possible!

And then let's create an evil sorcerer who opposes our hero's efforts to collect the seven parts of the golden pyramid. He uses his awesome magical powers to oppose them (for reason we learn in climax).

Unfortunately for him, he lacks the ability to travel through time, so he's limited to observing our heroes with an impressive ten-foot-wide crystal ball in his lavish palace, which is filled with dozens obedient harem girls. Very Happy

They're all beautiful, but they look sort of evil and slutty. They lay around on satin cushions while they giggle and gloat and smoke hashish from water pipes whenever they see images in the giant crystal ball of Sinbad and his guys battling horrible monsters!

(Uh-oh . . . forgive me, guys . . . I got a bit excited by idea of the slutty, giggling, stoned harem girls on satin cushions.) Embarassed

Anyway, our Bad Guy can send his spells back in time, conjuring up mythical monsters to battle Sinbad and company, pitting them against our heroes, hoping to destroy them before the can acquire each pyramid piece and escape to the next era which has one of the Seven Wonders!
___________________________________________

Concerning the look of this imaginary movie, let's consider the possibility that Harryhausen might have embraced CGI animation in the 1990s after seeing the direction Hollywood was going when Jurassic Park came out.

Suppose he was offered the chance to supervise a team of young computer animators who would create the special effects for this epic adventure!

Ray would be in charge of designing the creatures and planning their movements — the way only he could do!

The beauty of this ideas is that he wouldn't have to slave for many, many hours to bring his creations to the screen! His unique vision for these creatures would be crafted in the digital world, with the help of dedicated assistants who would be guided by his genius! Cool

As for the monsters themselves, here are a few humble suggestions I'd like to make. The first five are from Greek mythology, and the last one is Mesopotamian (where the Hanging Gardens of Babylon was located).

I realize that several of them are monsters which Ray has already used. But if they're given a new look when Sinbad and his men battle these Greek bad boys, it would breath new life into this whole idea!

Behold! The mythological creatures which Sinbad must defeat to succeed in his quest! Very Happy
_______________________________________

TYPHON - The “Father of all Monsters”. Typhon was the last child of Gaia, fathered by Tartarus, and is considered the most powerful and deadliest of all creatures in Greek mythology.



LAMIA - Lamia was a beautiful queen who ruled Libya. She fell into the disadvantage of Hera because of her relationship with Zeus.



HYDRA - The Lernaean Hydra was another child of Typhon and Echidna, a horrible sea monster with serpentine features and many snake heads.



MINOTAUR - The Minotaur was born when Poseidon decided to take revenge on King Minos of Crete for his disobedience; he denied sacrificing a beautiful white bull.



CERBERUS - Cerberus was the famous three-headed dog, pet of Hades, the god of the Underworld.



Ugallu- Babylonian myth: a storm demon

________
________________________________

During all this, the audience will want to know why Sinbad needs to find the hidden pieces of the golden pyramid which will magically materialize the long hidden Egyptian Book of the Death?

The shocking reason is this.

The Caliph of Egypt from 750–754 AD wants to resurrect his beloved wife, who was brutally assassinate by his worst enemy! Sad

Ah-ha, but exactly WHY does Sinbad want to risk his life and the lives of his crew on this treacherous journey? Confused

Because (brace yourself for this, folks, 'cause even I was shocked when I thought of it!) — As-Saffah, the Caliph of Egypt . . . is Sinbad's father!

Which means the poor lady who was assassinated is Sinbad's mother! Shocked

The evil sorcerer who opposed Sinbad throughout the story was desperately in love with Sinbad's beautiful mother — but when she spurned him and married As-Saffah, the evil sorcerer took his revenge by using his magic to murder her! Sad

And THAT — by Allah and all the gods on Mt. Olympus — is how you write story in which the audience becomes totally involved! Very Happy

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud, your breakdown of the plot is spot on! The synopsis that Pow posted is only the breakdown of Ray's special effects challenges, not the intrinsic plot of the full story.

Your "fleshing out" of the details of the full plot is perfect! I'd have loved to be able to see this film!

Ahh....The wonder of the mind to be able to visualize what might have been! I can just see Kerwin Matthewes aboard his ship searching for the wonders of the world to save the soul of his mother!

Just …. Wonderful!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud, you did some fine research in making some excellent creature suggestion for Ray to animate this proposed project.

Your plot gives the movie depth and motivation for Sinbad.

And you had me at 'slutty harem girls.'
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Mike and Gordo, your kind words put me on cloud nine! Very Happy

Gordo, when you said that Sinbad was trying to "save the soul of his mother", I realized that I'd been playing fast-and-loose with Egyptian religious beliefs!

I was assuming that the Book of the Dead would do what we see in Brendan Fraser's highly enjoyable Mummy movies — resurrect a dead person.

That's incorrect, of course. Smile

The Book of the Dead actually consisted of "a number of magic spells intended to assist a dead person's journey through the Duat, or underworld, and into the afterlife." (Wikipedia)

Ah, well . . . we're are, after all, just talkin' fantasy here. If a golden pyramid can materializes the documents that included those spells, I guess we can throw in the idea that there was a spell that brought people back from the underworld. Very Happy

By the way, I'd be interested to know what you and the other members thought about my suggestion about Ray being put in charge of a team of CGI artist who would create "Harryhausen-like" digital animation.

I Googled the question, "What did Harryhausen think of CGi?", and I found an interview which included this.
______________________________

What do you think about CGI animation in general?

Oh, I think CGI does some wonderful things, but I don’t see why you should throw everything else out just because CGI is good. I see no reason why it can’t be combined. After all, what is the end product? It’s to entertain.
______________________________

Bingo! Cool

That statement tells us that Ray would consider "combining" stop motion with CGI — and not just as two separate processes! The unique appearance of stop motion could be achieved with CGI . . . and enhanced in several important ways.

Ray believed that stop motion is especially good for fantasy movies precise because it [u]isn't[/i] too realistic! He knew that creating the illusion of motion by using inanimate objects was a magic all its own. And the more an audience member knows about the process of stop motion, the more dazzled he is whenever he sees it.

Stop motion is the magic trick that isn't spoiled by knowing how its done . . . it's becomes even MORE amazing! Shocked

Ray is the Master of Illusion when it come to stop motion. He's the only man who could serve as the director of a CGI team who could insure that the CGI creations would be heavily influenced by his personal vision of the scenes if they'd been done with stop motion.

With that in mind, I think Ray (and his team) could do an amazing job of creating Harryhausen-style computer generated stop-motion with "virtual models" which included a wealth of detail.






For the first time in his career, Ray would be free from the maddening task of having to remember things like which direction every head of the hydra was moving at each moment in a shot!







My own simple attempts at stop motion when I was about 14 years old made me realize just how difficult that was for Ray — and yet he did it!

In one of my 8mm movies I managed to animate a dragon's head and tail, along with a two-headed, three-tailed "hydra" during the quick (and very simple) battle shown below.






But the most elaborate stop motion I did was the brief struggle between a caveman and a snake which wrapped itself around his spear when he poked it into the "cave" I made from a tent-shape piece of folded cardboard, taped down to my desk to prevent movement during the filming. Very Happy

The snake crawls up the spear and wraps itself around the caveman — anaconda style — until he pulls it off and flings it to the ground!

(Click on the images to watch the short film.)








Unlike the previous stop motion I did with the dragon and the hydra, the action moves a bit too fast. With the earlier animation, parts of it were too slow.

I hadn't yet learned how to mentally calculate the distance the models needed to be moved in each frame to make them move (on screen) at the right speed.

Harryhausen was a genius at doing this — as well as his unique ability to literally "choreograph" his models so that they became actors making graceful and appealing movements.

However, I'm certain that a dedicated team of CGI artists, under Ray's direction, could have created stop motion scenes as great as this one!


__20 Million Miles To Earth (1957) Breakout Scene


__________

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scotpens
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That stop-motion animation is actually pretty good considering you were a kid of 14 at the time! If you're still in possession of the original 8mm film, I'd suggest you have it professionally scanned and transferred to digital video.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Thank you, kind sir!

All Sci-Fi member Maurice volunteers at Archive.org, and he has offered to scan my 8mm film into their database if I mail the original footage to him. He's even provided an address I can use for that purpose!

I'm ashamed to admit that I've been too lazy to do this — but I think it's time I finally took advantage of his generous offer.

Thanks for the encouragement. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your idea of ray overseeing CGI artists is an excellent one, Bud. I believe that he would have gotten a kick out of doing that and that the CGI team would have been thrilled to work with a legend like Ray.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sinbad Goes to Mars

The Caliph of Alexandria camps near the great pyramid and during the night the structure glows and weird figures with animal heads appear and kidnap the Caliph's daughter---Princess Tanila.

Returning to his palace he summons Sinbad to find his daughter.

Along with his companion, Ali Baba, Sinbad enters the pyramid where the genie Sesame appears.

The genie tells Sinbad that the Princess has been taken to the planet Mars.

Sinbad commands the genie to take them there and by means of a shimmering mirror they are transported to a similar pyramid near a ruined city.

Mars is ruled by an evil Queen who seeks immortality, and the planet, once verdant, is now ravished by hordes of monstrous moths.

Making their way to the Queen's underground palace, Sinbad, Ali and Sesame encounter and kill some of the terrifying moths.

Once at the palace they are greeted by the Queen who explains that the Princess has been taken in order to succeed to the Martian throne, as she is a descendant of the last Egyptian Queen---Cleopatra.

In reality the evil Queen wants the girl's blood which will guarantee her immortality.

Sinbad soon realizes this and they try to escape but are challenged by a half mummy, half Frankenstein monster and then are captured by the Queen's surgeon-priests.

Sinbad is accused of desecration and is sentenced to be sacrificed to the Martian sphinx. Sinbad destroys the creature with fire and returns through a labyrinth as a volcano erupts and begins to consume the palace.

The Queen is killed in the eruption but the princess is saved. All three are taken to the pyramid by Sesame, who has transformed himself into a giant Roc bird, and once there are transported off the dying planet and returned to the great pyramid on Earth.

This potential Sinbad movie by Ray sounds absolutely dreadful.

Sinbad going to Mars seems too bizarre and too John Carter of Mars to me.

If Sinbad has the genie Sesame along for this adventure, then wouldn't he be so powerful that none of the dangers on Mars would present a problem for Sinbad & Ali Baba?

I assume Ray and the writer of the script would have placed certain limitations on Sesame's powers; still.

Meeting Mothra sounds underwhelming as a sequence.

Evil Queen, kidnapped princess are kinda tired old cliches. Wasn't there anything more original that could have been concocted for a plot?


The erupting volcano was done by Ray in Mysterious Island and One Million Years B.C., and a giant Roc (and its baby) were in The 7th Voyage of Sinbad. So he's actually repeating himself instead of pushing the envelop and conjuring up new concepts.

I gotta give 2 big thumbs down on this unrealized project by Ray.

Sinbad and the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World sounded more intriguing. Although with that idea I'd have made it a Jason movie instead of a Sinbad film.

For me, 3 Sinbad movies were plenty. Time to move on.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Wow, Mike, you gave me a scare! Here's why. Shocked

I've heard of Ray's wacky idea to do a movie called Sinbad on Mars, but I'd never heard anything about the plot. In fact, in a lecture I attended at Georgia State University to promote the upcoming Clash of the Titans, Ray mentioned Sinbad on Mars . . . and the attendees chuckled!

Poor Ray said, "Why do people always laugh at that idea?" Sad

When I started reading your post above, I mistakenly thought you were presenting your own ideas for a story with that title, and I was troubled by the puzzling fact that it wasn't up to your usual high standards! Shocked

But when I got to the end I discovered it was Ray's idea, and that you didn't like it anymore than I did! I was very relieved! Laughing

By the way, at the end of that Georgia State University lecture Ray allowed some of us come up to the table where he had several of his models on display.

I asked Ray what he thought of Caveman. He gave me a very short answer.

"I don't like send ups."

(Definition of send up — "an exaggerated imitation of someone or something in order to ridicule them.")

Ray apparently felt that Caveman was a spoof of One Million Years B.C. — which I think it actually was. Laughing

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to lol, Bruce, when i read that initially you thought that the plot summery for Sinbad Goes To Mars was mine.

I may not always have the best plot ideas for movies or television, but I don't believe I would have ever created something as terrible as SGTM. I hope.

I envy that you actually got to hear Ray speak & then meet him later on. I'm jealous.

One of my most treasured books is his Ray Harryhausen: An Animated Life. I also have some other books covering his marvelous career. I am saddened that the legendary Willis O'Brien did not have a producer/supporter throughout his career as Ray did with Charles Schneer,

Ray's talent was astounding, but I wonder just what his career would have been without Charles in his corner?

As enthralled as I am with CGI, it's sad that it has essentially made stop~motion animation obsolete. There should be a place for both of these wonderful visual effects.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

In 1994 a good friend of mine named Rod Bennett went to a convention where Ray was a guest, and Rod asked me if he could borrow my "Time Saving Device" — a Sony cassette recorder with built-in left and right microphones which I often used to record spirited discussions between me and my friends at restaurants, backyard cookouts, etc.

________________

I have over 200 tapes of those conversation, spanning a ten year period.

Rod wanted to record any chats he might have with Ray Harryhausen at the convention.

He did succeed in having a nice conversation with Ray, and he told Ray about the fact that his old friend Bruce Cook had named his son "Jason" because he loved the 1963 movie so much.

Ray was very flattered . . . and Rod asked him if he could wish my son Happy Birthday so that the tape could be played several weeks later for Jason when my family attended an elaborate "movie night" at Rod's house, with more than a dozen guests.

Jason was nine years old on the evening we all heard the tape at Rod's house, and he was delighted by the honor which Ray bestowed on him. Very Happy

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