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Krel Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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scotpens wrote: | And the nuclear reactor apparently fits in the two feet or so of space between the interior floor and the bottom of the hull. Also, where are the ballast tanks? The pumping machinery? The Proteus is basically a big bottle of air. But it sure looks pretty. |
Also, all that air hose they unreeled for the snorkel. It's not a thin hose, and it has to fit somewhere.
Well, as William Goldman wrote: There is a difference between real, real, and movie real.
David. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17020 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Great questions, guys!
I'll try to add some interesting comments.
scotpens wrote: | And the nuclear reactor apparently fits in the two feet or so of space between the interior floor and the bottom of the hull. |
I know this is a lame answer, but if the advanced technology in this movie can shrink matter to microscopic size, it seems reasonable to assume they can make smaller reactors.
As I said, that's a lame answer, so please don't feel the need to reply to it.
scotpens wrote: | Also, where are the ballast tanks? The pumping machinery? The Proteus is basically a big bottle of air. |
Ah-ha! This question really got me thinking!
When I was kid in the 1950s I went swimming every summer at the public pool, and I had no trouble diving down to the bottom of the 18' deep end.
How did I do it?
Well, I know that whales dive to much deeper depths than this because their lungs are compressed by the water pressure, and this causes the whales' buoyancy to be reduced — without requiring them to release any of their air.
And that was exactly what happened to me in the swimming pool when the pressure reduced my lung size, making it possible for me to dive down to the bottom of the pool!
I Googled a question about this and learned that modern submarines submerge to a depth of 300 meters. Obviously, they need to release air and take on ballast to do this.
But the Proteus never went to a depth which required these procedures! The Proteus was in a relatively shallow liquid environment which never exposed it to water pressure that required ballast for it to submerged. It was designed to have a "negative buoyancy" which permitted it to submerge and surface using its diving plans and propulsion system in this somewhat shallow environment.
In short, the Proteus was like those small two-man subs which cruise around in shallow lakes. It didn't have the requirements of "real" submarines.
So . . . what do you think, guys? Did I answer the questions? _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2940 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Scotpens wrote: | And the nuclear reactor apparently fits in the two feet or so of space between the interior floor and the bottom of the hull. |
Most people don't have a real idea of HOW an atomic reactor actually creates usable energy.
First of all . . .all it really does is create heat through atomic decay. This heat may be used to heat water to steam to run a turbine. This turbine can be used directly to mechanically turn a flywheel connected to a drive shaft. It could also be connected to an electric generator to create electricity. This would be a rather large device and hardly practical in the case of the Proteus.
However, there is a second method that WOULD be greatly practical! The heat from the reactor could be connected to a thermocouple.
As defined by Wikipedia:
"A thermocouple can produce current to drive some processes directly, without the need for extra circuitry and power sources. For example, the power from a thermocouple can activate a valve when a temperature difference arises. The electrical energy generated by a thermocouple is converted from the heat which must be supplied to the hot side to maintain the electric potential. A continuous transfer of heat is necessary because the current flowing through the thermocouple tends to cause the hot side to cool down and the cold side to heat up (the Peltier effect).
Thermocouples can be connected in series to form a thermopile, where all the hot junctions are exposed to a higher temperature and all the cold junctions to a lower temperature. The output is the sum of the voltages across the individual junctions, giving larger voltage and power output. In a radioisotope thermoelectric generator, the radioactive decay of transuranic elements as a heat source has been used to power spacecraft on missions too far from the Sun to use solar power."
I think the reactor was used to power a thermopile , taking up very little space, and used to run the electric motors and control devices on the Proteus.
And as far as the ballast issue is concerned, the same technology that can reduce the size and mass of subs and people shouldn't have a problem adjusting the weight (mass) of them to the slight amount that would be needed to achieve neutral buoyancy. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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scotpens Starship Captain
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 871 Location: The Left Coast
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Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bud Brewster wrote: | I Googled a question about this and learned that modern submarines submerge to a depth of 300 meters. Obviously, they need to release air and take on ballast to do this.
But the Proteus never went to a depth which required these procedures! The Proteus was in a relatively shallow liquid environment which never exposed it to water pressure that required ballast for it to submerged. It was designed to have a "negative buoyancy" which permitted it to submerge and surface using its diving planes and propulsion system in this somewhat shallow environment.
In short, the Proteus was like those small two-man subs which cruise around in shallow lakes. It didn't have the requirements of "real" submarines.
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All of which makes sense if the Proteus had been specifically designed for its mission. But it wasn't — it was hastily drafted into service! According to the dialogue, the sub was designed for studying "the spawning habits of deep-sea fish."
Which means, realistically speaking, it should have looked more like these vessels.
Link: https://tritonsubs.com/subs/ultradeep/ |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17020 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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OUCH! BUSTED! That negates my theory completely.
I agree that the Proteus certainly isn't designed for the purpose stated in the movie. So the easiest "fix" for this problem would be to change the line of dialog to say that the sub was designed for oceanographers to study sea creatures living in the first few hundred feet of the ocean, where sunlight can penetrate — thus legitimizing all those nice view ports.
Also noteworthy is the presence of the airlock for the scuba divers. A true ultra-deep submersible wouldn't need that, because scuba divers can't go below 130 feet.
So, there seems to be evidence that the Proteus was intended to work the way I described, thus solving the problem of the missing features a full sized sub would need. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2940 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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The General in the film said the sub was designed for studying "the spawning habits of deep-sea fish."
Not being a Navy man he may have spoke more hyperbole than fact. _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17020 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Gord Green wrote: | The General in the film said the sub was designed for studying "the spawning habits of deep-sea fish."
Not being a Navy man he may have spoke more hyperbole than fact. |
Gord, you're a genius! What a remarkly salient remark!
Here's some info I found concerning the spawning habits of "deep sea fish".
The lifecycle of deep-sea fish can be exclusively in deep water, although some species are born in shallower water and sink upon maturation.
Bingo! This indicates that "deep sea fish" don't live and spawn exclusively at extreme depths!
So, the Proteus was designed to cruise around at relatively shallow depths and play Peeping Tom on deep sea fish having sex and giving birth!
This new info rescues my defense of the Proteus' design and frees it from the necessity of ballast tanks and all that other bulky stuff!
_________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2940 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Very true Bud!
Besides . . . it's a beautiful design . . . I want one! _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17020 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, Gord, nothing it too good for the friend who sent me a windup-walking-model of Gort, along with a replica of a bottle of Ancient Rocket Burbon that included a Christmas card which read —
Bud, what you need is a Gort . . . and snort!
Later you sent me a "new-in-the-box" walking-talking Robby the Robot . . . which I didn't even know had recently gone on sale!
Now they both stand on my fireplace mantle and remind me constantly that sometimes good friends can live far away but still be close to a person's heart.
Anyway, don't be surprised if a very large UPS truck shows up in your front yard on your next birthday and unloads a replica of the Proteus!
I just hope you have a large lake near your home in which you can sail it around! If you don't . . . well, it's the thought that counts, right? _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
Last edited by Bud Brewster on Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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scotpens Starship Captain
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 871 Location: The Left Coast
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Gord Green wrote: | The General in the film said the sub was designed for studying "the spawning habits of deep-sea fish."
Not being a Navy man he may have spoke more hyperbole than fact. |
Actually it was Capt. Owens, the sub's pilot (played by William Redfield) who said that. His exact line is: "Designed for piscatorial research. Uh, spawning habits of deep-sea fish."
That's a sloppy bit of writing. "Piscatorial" means pertaining to fishing. He should have said "ichthyological research" (pertaining to the scientific study of fish).
Don't know if Owens was a Navy man or not. |
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Pow Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 3401 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I've noticed that James Brolin (Marcus Welby, M.D. TV series) is listed in FV as a "technician." Never been able to locate him in the movie.
I did catch Brendon Boone. He is the military MP who picks up Grant (Stephen Boyd) in the motor cart in the underground CMDF facility. He does not have any lines.
Brendon would go on to play "Chief" in the TV series "Garrison's Gorillas" which ran from September 6, 1967 to March 12, 1968.
The show was a "Dirty Dozen" themed series minus seven.
During World War II, Captain Garrison recruits four convicts to perform daring espionage missions. |
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Bud Brewster Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 17020 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Mike, I'm beginning to imagine Leonard Maltin when I read your fact-packed and highly enjoyable comments about movies and shows. You both have a distinguished and articulate way of imparting Hollywood lore. _________________ ____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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Gord Green Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 06 Oct 2014 Posts: 2940 Location: Buffalo, NY
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bud wrote: | I just hope you have a large lake near your home in which you can sail it around! If you don't . . . well, it's the thought that counts, right? |
Hey, I live just a couple of miles from Lake Erie with access to all the other Great Lakes....So what the heck...I'll spring for a trailer to get me to a launching place. I may even invite a good friend to come along on her maiden voyage!!
I'll be looking out my window every day waiting for delivery! _________________ There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child. |
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Pow Galactic Ambassador
Joined: 27 Sep 2014 Posts: 3401 Location: New York
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, thank you Bruce. I'm a big fan of Leonard Maltin. I read his book years ago about movie comedy teams that was interesting & revealing. At that time, all I knew about those wonderful teams was what I saw on the screen.
Did not know any of their backgrounds or behind-the scenes info.
For some reason, Bruce, your kind compliments to me puts me in mind of a scene in the fantastic film "Patton."
Omar Bradley holds up a newspaper with the headline that Patton is racing through Europe with his army.
Bradley smiles and says: "Give George a headline and he's good for another twenty miles." |
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Maurice Mission Specialist
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 462 Location: 3rd Rock
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Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Bud Brewster wrote: | So, the Proteus was designed to cruise around at relatively shallow depths and play Peeping Tom on deep sea fish having sex and giving birth! |
Umm...most fish don't do either. Females release eggs into the water, males release sperm near them, and the eggs get fertilized. The eggs hatch. There's no live birth. _________________ * * *
"The absence of limitations is the enemy of art."
― Orson Welles |
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