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Signs (2002)
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bud wrote:
Quote:
"Alien beings" can be both god-like and non-corporeal. As such, they can tinker with the events which humans experience, just to see how things turn out. They do it just for fun . . . not because they actually care about us.

This is a perfect description of how the Greek gods looked at Mankind in the Illiad by Homer.

All the "signs" Gibson's character perceived in this movie could also all be attributed to coincidence. Man sometimes looks for "signs" in some context to reinforce his belief in something greater than himself.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gord Green wrote:
All the "signs" Gibson's character perceived in this movie could also all be attributed to coincidence.

That pessimistic attitude totally robs the movie of it's unique premise, along with the wonder and awe it presents. It's like saying that everything which happened was pointless.

I'm surprised you'd even suggest that. Rolling Eyes

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not pessimistic at all...pragmatic and practical. That's what the question the film asks. Divine signs or coincidences? Hardly pointless. All signs are evidences leading to a conclusion.
Every man finds his own solution.

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Forgive me, my friend, but I'm appalled by your suggestion that the story might have an alternative explanation.

You seem to think that "story-wise", the signs could have all been coincidences! Viewing this movie as someone who is "pragmatic and practical" is like watching The Sound of Music when you're tone-deaf! Shocked

If your sad assertion were true, the director of this movie blatantly tricked us into thinking those "coincidences" were examples of divine intervention.

And your suggestion that each viewer could choose to believe whatever he wants . . . is illogical!

In other words, "truth" is relative to each person. Rolling Eyes

Gord, I understand the idea that some movies leave important questions unresolved to tease the audience. But this isn't one of those movies.

In this case, the message is clear. "The universe has a secret pattern which mankind often misses."

Doubting the clear concept presented by M. Night Shyamalan's in this movie is like saying the viewers of Forbidden Planet are free to assume that Robby was secretly just a man in a suit, Morbius is a lying bastard who killed people, and Altaira is actually a dirty little slut. Shocked

Such a misinterpretation of Forbidden Planet's basic concept is ridiculous. The "truth" of any fictional tale lies in the mind of the author. He's the God of that fictional realm, and no one can challenge his definition of the situation or the characters!

I'm sure M. Night Shyamalan was sincere when he presented the audience with the concept that the universe only seems random to us because we can't see the complex patterns.

It's a fascinating concept which offers hope, and it inspires our imagination.

Conversely, the suggestion that it was all just a series of coincidences is sadly unimaginative. It robs us of hope, it steals the heart and soul from this movie, and it reduces the story to a cruel trick played on the audience by a director whose cinematic skill tried to convince us that there was a God . . . when in fact He doesn't really exist! Shocked

Please understand, I'm just analyzing this movie's premise from the point of view of a writer and a movie lover. I'm not claiming that God exists in the real world . . . I'm must saying that He supposedly exists in this fantasy world created by M. Night Shyamalan.

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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Bud....My comment above IS exactly what M. Night has said the movie is about.

It asks just that question about divine causality or chance. For Rev.Hess the conclusion is the divine but he comes to that from refinding his faith.

But the point of the film is to ASK that question.

In an interview M.Night says this:
https://www.theringer.com/movies/2020/7/30/21348462/m-night-shyamalan-signs-unbreakable-the-sixth-sense-interview

---------------------------------------------------

"So there’ll be a bunch of ideas, but when I find what the movie’s actually about … you know, the sofa scene in Signs is what the movie is actually about, where he and his brother talk about, “What kind of person are you? Do you believe in things? Or is it all just chance?”

When I understood that that’s what the movie was about, it filled everything. It filled the spaces and gave it canvas to tell the genre of it all. And I think if you see [Signs] off of Unbreakable, as a diary, it was about someone regaining faith in himself, and in the world a little bit, because of where I was.

How much of that explicit faith that God, or a divine power, sends signs—and things aren’t just pure chance—how much of that was biographical for you at the time? Because you’ve dealt with subject matter like that in the past.

Look, I think I have a very strong … I don’t know if we’d call it spirituality. But I’m not religious at all. It wasn’t about endorsing or advocating for any specific religion. It was really more about that sofa scene. I might say, right this second, that it’s almost physics, the idea of energy, and putting things into the world, the universe, and those things are attracted and come back to you.

And if we believe in it, all we’re actually believing is that we have more agency than we truly believe. I still ascribe to that thinking, very much so. So when we think about our minds: Do you see the glasses of water around you to save you at that moment if you’re not open to seeing the glasses of water around you?"
---------------------------------------------
This is the "sofa" scene M.Night is talking about.

A key moment sees Merrill – fearing the outcome of the invasion – look to his brother for reassurance. Graham – not believing in what he’s saying but wanting to help his sibling – delivers a passionate preacher sermon about the power of faith.

From the script:

“People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group number one sees it as more than luck. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I’m sure the people in group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way.

For them, the situation is a fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they’re on their own. And that fills them with fear … But there’s a whole lot of people in group number one.

When they see those fourteen lights, they’re looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever’s going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope.

See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?”.

-----------------------------------------

Sounds like a question to me!

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

And excellent reply, old friend. I understand your earlier comments much better now. Thank you for being patient with me 'till I figured it out. Very Happy

I agree completely that whether or not there is a God is a matter of personal opinion . . . in the real world.

But here's where we may be misunderstanding each other.


Gord Green wrote:
[This movie] asks just that question about divine causality or chance. For Rev. Hess the conclusion is the divine, but he comes to that from refinding his faith.

But the point of the film is to ASK that question.

Here's where we disagree.

A story can be based on the premise that God either does exist or He does not (although I can't think of a movie that's based on the assumption that God does NOT exists.)

However, some movies start right off with the solid assumption that God does exist, and it sticks with that all the way through the story — such as The Ten Commandments.

On the other hand, some movies start off debating the question of God's existence . . . and it presents several characters who believe in God, along with others who do not. A good example of this is Raiders of the Lost Ark.

In that movie, the climax answers the question with a resounding YES when the Ark is opened! Shocked

Gord, I think it's obvious that Signs is like Raiders of the Lost Ark, in that it ponders the question of God's existence throughout the story . . . and then it answers the question with a resounding "yes" in that amazing climax with all those flashbacks to help the audience see just how God was actively pitchin' in and helping the poor humans! Very Happy

That's why I stated that I don't think we're supposed to watch this movie and still be wondering if all the strange "coincidences" were caused by a divine influence.

Most of the movie asked the question concerning God's existence. But that dynamic climax answers it in a way that is supposed to be obvious and inarguable.

Please bear in mind that all these examples are just tales of fiction which present their own imaginative versions of reality. They aren't "logical arguments for the existence of God" . . . or for magical religious artifacts . . . or for alien invaders. Rolling Eyes

Gord, I think I can convince you that I'm right. With all due respect, your statement below has the cause-and-effect reversed! Sad

Here's what you said.

"[The movie] asks just that question about divine causality or chance. For Rev. Hess, the conclusion is the divine, but he comes to that from refinding his faith."

Your saying that FIRST he renewed his faith — and because of that, he believed the events were caused by divine intervention.

Forgive me, sir . . . but that's bass-ackwards! Shocked

The cause of him refinding his faith was his startling realization that the "coincidences" were not coincidences . . . they were deliberately done by an unseen force to help him!

Just for clarity, let me state that another way.

Reverent Hess didn't come to the conclusion that the events were divine because he had renewed his faith . . . he renewed his faith because he realize that the events were divine!

Gord, here's an outline of the Sign's plot.
________________________________

~ A priest looses his beloved wife in a senseless accident.

~ The heartbreak of the tragedy causes him so reject God.

~ Alien invaders threaten his family.

~ At a key moment, a series of apparent coincidences prove to be amazingly helpful in defeating the aliens.

~ The priest realizes that God has arranged these "coincidences" to help him defeat the aliens. These events also show him that God does exist, and that things happen according to God's will. As a result, the man returns to the priesthood.
________________________________

Your interpretation seems to suggest the story is like this.
________________________________

~ A priest looses his beloved wife in a senseless accident.

~ The heartbreak of the tragedy causes him so reject God.

~ Alien invaders threaten his family.

~ Random events occur which turn out be "lucky".

~ The priest regains his faith in God . . . spontaneously.

~ The priest decides that God caused all the "lucky" stuff to happen.

~ The End
________________________________

Forgive me, Gord, but that version of the story is not very good. Sad

It's dull, it's depressing, and it hinges on an illigocial event which has no connection to the other events in the story.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)


Last edited by Bud Brewster on Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gord Green
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's not at all what I'm suggesting.

Rev. Hess underwent what is called an epiphany.

It's a moment when you suddenly feel that you understand, or suddenly become conscious of, something that is very important to you.

Generally the term is used to describe scientific breakthrough, religious or philosophical discoveries, but it can apply in any situation in which an enlightening realization allows a problem or situation to be understood from a new and deeper perspective.

The word epiphany originally referred to insight through the divine. Today, this concept is more often used without such connotations, but a popular implication remains that the epiphany is supernatural, as the discovery seems to come suddenly from the outside.

In more general terms, the phrase "religious epiphany" is used when a person realizes their faith, or when they are convinced that an event or happening was really caused by a deity or being of their faith.

His realization of a divine influence was what rekindled his faith not the reverse. It was like Saul on the Damscus road or Constantine and the vision of the Cross ...the events were simultaneous.

I have no doubt that the Rev underwent this epiphany, but just as the nature of epiphanies is personal to the individual it doesn't mean that everyone would have the same result. The "resounding "Yes!"" you talked about is VERY true....for him!

As M. Night stated:


Quote:
"So there’ll be a bunch of ideas, but when I find what the movie’s actually about … you know, the sofa scene in Signs is what the movie is actually about, where he and his brother talk about, “What kind of person are you? Do you believe in things? Or is it all just chance?”

The Rev found his answer and it was clearly and beautifully shown.

But I think the movie, as M. Night Shyamalan says, was for the viewer to make up his own mind in answer to his question. And the very fact that it is so is that it sparked our own discussion! (Note: I said discussion, not "argument!)

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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Great post! Thanks, Reverend Green. My soul is now at peace. Very Happy

The only thing we seem to disagree on is that this movie makes it very plain to the audience that all the "coincidences" were caused by an unseen force which guided and assisted the humans in defeating the aliens.

In those scenes, Shyamalan didn't show us what Mel Gibson "thought" all those events meant . . . he showed us what we all were supposed to realize they meant! It was a dramatic revelation which shocked the audience and proved that we'd all gotten our money's worth! Wink

Gord, you continue to feel that the audience is supposed to be free to reject the powerful evidence the film presents in the climax, and that they can consider the question of divine interference as being unresolved! Shocked

If that was true, the audience would have left disappointed and cheated by their cinematic experience. I know I would!

My friend, a film's director should not have to explain to the audience what his movie meant to convey. If they don't understand his message, the director did a poor job.

This movie was NOT a story which left the audience wondering how the aliens were defeated. Confused

Viewing this movie in that manner is like watching the climax of Raiders of the Lost Ark and denying that all those gruesome deaths the bad guys suffered were really caused by a vengeful God who was punishing the evil Nazis! Shocked

Did YOU doubt what that scene was showing us?

I didn't . . . and I doubt you did either. Ditto for the climax of Signs.

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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)
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Bud Brewster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

________________________________

Enjoy this fine video which discusses the plot of the movie and what it says to viewers.



____ SIGNS Analyzed & Explained - Movie Review


__________

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~ The Space Children (1958)
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