ALL SCI-FI

[Bud Brewster]

______________________________________________

A fabulous discussion, gentlemen! I'm delighted to have intelligent posts to which I can reply after a dry spell on All Sci-Fi.

With that in mind, I'm going to beg your indulgence by doing a little nit-picking just to keep the ball rolling.
_____________________________________________

Mike, I almost embarrassed myself by claiming that it was the Enteprise's deflectors that burned out, not the phasers. I'd forgotten just how complex that plot really was! I had to refresh my memory with this excerpt from Wikipedia.
_____________________________________________

Spock, taking command of the Enterprise, drives her at maximum warp speed to beat the approaching asteroid to the deflection point.

However, having pushed the engines well beyond their normal limits, there is not much energy left to deflect the asteroid. The ship's deflectors result in a change of only 0.0013 degrees in its course, which Mr. Sulu tells Spock is insufficient to avert collision with the planet.

An attempt to cleave the asteroid like a diamond using the ship's phasers fails, and the attempt damages the warp drive beyond Scotty's ability to repair.
_____________________________________________

So, you skillfully simplified all that for the sake of brevity. What lead me astray was this statemnent

[Pow]

Mr. Spock dons a spacesuit & jetpack in order to travel through an aperture of V'Ger's and into what he hopes is the heart or mind of the immense cloud/machine. He activates the thruster rockets and does enter further into this astonishing mechanism. Once inside he then discards his jetpack! Why? Wasn't he planning to return to the Enterprise with whatever invaluable information he was able to discover?

[Pow]

V'Ger allows the Enterprise to approach its position and creates an oxygen bubble and gravity field for Kirk and company. Kirk & his selected crewmembers then exit the starship through egress in the saucer section. They then travel over a structure to meet finally meet V'Ger.

Wonder why they did not use the transporter and quickly beam over to V'Ger's location? Time was of the essence during this crisis. V'Ger was threatening to extinguish all life on Earth, so the transporter would have been far faster than watching the crew take several minutes to traverse the distance from the Enterprise to V'Ger itself. There is no indication that V'Ger is preventing the transporter from operating. And why would it do so anyway? It is desperate for the Kirk-Unit to give it the answers to its questions, therefore the sooner the better.

Obviously director Robert Wise ignored practicality in order to shoot the scene the way he did. He must have felt that it came off as more suspenseful and dramatic, building up to the big reveal of what V'Ger was. Once again, a case of don't ever let logic get in the way of drama.

[Pow]

Once our intrepid crew finally encounters V'Ger, we see them in awe and confusion as to what exactly it is. Captain Kirk sees a plate with English wording on it, but it is partially obscured by scaring. Kirk clears it away and announces that it says "Voyager IV!"

I believe it was Harlan Ellison in his review of the film that noted how astonishing it was that an entirely machine world of unimaginable power and technology light years beyond the Federation, somehow just couldn't figure out how to remove the stain on the name plate.

Having Kirk clear away the name plate and dramatically announce that this is the NASA space probe Voyager IV is odd. Both Mr. Spock & Captain Decker have tricorders with them. Wouldn't it be standard procedure to have them scan the probe and then have the Enterprise's library computer inform them it was Voyager IV before Kirk even approached it?

Kirk then theorizes that Voyage IV fell into a black hole and then appeared in orbit around the machine world.

From what our science now tells us, man & machine entering a black hole would be shredded inside a black hole. How could Voyager IV have ever survived? It couldn't.

Also, Decker says that the term black hole is what they used to call this spatial phenomena. So, what do they call 'em in the future?

[Bud Brewster]

______________________________________________

Mike, if I hadn't already formed a very low opinion of this flawed science fiction movie when I first saw it, your analysis of it's many flaws would have convinced me that it was a badly made motion picture.

Not only did it fail to present a movie version of the original series, it insulted the science fiction community with a terrible story.

In my opinion, what George Lucas did when he made Star Wars in 1977 was the answer to the prayers of all the science fiction fans who yearned for something as wonderful as what the saw on television in the 1960s when Star Trek aired.
_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Pow]

I agree with you, Bruce, that ST: TMP is flawed and will never be the favorite of the Trek films with fans. Certainly not me.

However, upon watching this movie again on Youtube, I can appreciate the science fiction ideas within it. The concept of living machines was brand new to cinema at this time. In fact, the studio execs were ready to shoot down this premise entirely as they believed it to be too far fetched. Noted author Isaac Asimov was the one who convinced them that such a development might one day be possible.

The themes of why are we here, what is my purpose, are certainly universal to any thinking individual. I can appreciate that this motion picture attempted to continue the profound intellectual issues that Roddenberry tried to do on his 1966 Trek TV series. I'm sure there must have been pressure upon him as well as others by the studio to have this film imitate Star Wars with its action-packed scenes, destructions, and overall violence. And go light on anything intellectual or very deep.

The production values for the movie remain marvelous to behold. They should, they had one of the largest budgets any film had. But large budgets do not always translate into sharp looking designs. The new Enterprise is fantastic to see, the various sets were all quite impressive, V'Ger was awesome looking. The uniforms were criticized, few fans approved of them. I never hated them as others do. My feeling was that they could have rendered them more acceptable by simply adding color and follow what had been done on the 1966 show. Gold is for command, blue for sciences, red for technical & security. Black pants.

From everything I've read about the making of the movie, it was clearly a very troubled production throughout. Severe disagreements over what the script should be; Roddenberry's drinking & drug issues, the original visual effects team not working out; and all the stress and pressures of sinking $40,000,000 into a film. This isn't to excuse the fact that the movie is indeed less than the sum of its parts. I'm certainly not attempting to talk you or anyone else, including little ole' me, that its a fine film in the annals of science-fiction. It was imperfectly executed, to be sure.

Still, it had some very nice moments and it did attempt to aspire to more than simply mindless action, or being a clone of Star Wars. I was dissatisfied with the movie when I left the theater with my friends after watchin it in 1979. Over the years I am able to see some of its virtues amongst its vices. I wish it had been better than it turned out. This film almost killed the film franchise, possibly any further television series to come along. I can't relegate this film as totally unworthy.

[Bud Brewster]

______________________________________________

Wow . . . what an amazing post. Mike.

I humbly agree with your statements concerning the virtues of ST: TMP. It shouldn't be dismissed just because it made some mistakes.

Obviously I was less impressed with it than you were when I first saw it. But I've freguently stated on All Sci-Fi that I've often re-watched movies and TV shows and drastically changed my opinion of them.

It's a fact that people change as they grow older. We outgrow ideas we had when we were younger, and we develop the ability to understand and appreciate certain things as we obtain wisdom and knowledge as we grow older.

I pride myself on my willingness to admit when I was wrong. Some folks don't seem able to do it.

Mike, your post above is a fine example of the dramatic difference between All Sci-Fi and other message boards I've visited. Few of them seem to include posts like the one you presented above.

Apparently there aren't many people who possess your passion for movies like ST: TMP, and your ability to express you opinions so well. I think this is why All Sci-Fi struggles to attract the kind of members we want.

Mike, I'd love to watch ST: TMP with you in All Sci-Fi's Chatzy Room. I know you just finished watching it, but as you've often heard me say, "It's not the movie . . . it's the chat!"

Please let me know what you think of the idea.
_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Pow]

Found a nifty photograph of the cast on the bridge of the Enterprise in their movie uniforms. Instead of the drab colors they wore in the film, we now see the uniforms colored like the ones they had in the original TV series.

While folks may still dislike the design of the uniforms, the proper colors really make a huge difference and look terrific.

[Bud Brewster]

______________________________________________

Where did you find it, Pow?

Give me a few hints and I'll post it.
_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Pow]

Google search: IMGUR has the movie's uniforms but redone with the correct colors based upon the original Trek TV series. A huge improvement over what they had in the feature film.

[Pow]

I suppose the fact that ST: TMP turned out as well as it did was a miracle in itself after reading some of the background involved in getting the motion picture up & running at all.

Harold Livingston who provided the screenplay loathed working with Gene Roddenberry. "I resented his interference and apparently, he wanted someone to carry his lunch, and that wasn't me." H.L.

Paramount Pictures rejected GR's screenplay draft (possibly due to its anti-religious overtones) "The God Thing." The crew encounters God, turning out to be an alien with God-like powers.

Paramount then hired Ray Bradbury, Harlan Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, and Robert Silverberg, all noted science-fiction writers, to write scripts for the project. The studio felt that their respective scripts were fine for TV but not worthy of a motion picture.

The challenge for writers was to give audiences everything they liked about the television show, without seeming like a television series for the motion picture.

London-based writers Alan Scott & Chris Bryant are hired by Paramount. Their script "Planet of Titans" is found by Paramount as pretentious.

Director Philip Kaufman wants to have Captain Kirk die at the beginning of the film and then brought back to life at the end. Kaufman leaves the project.

Star Trek: Phase II. This was the project about the TV reboot of the original series. "In Thy Image" was a script by Alan Dean Foster which was an adaptation of the script concept "Robot's Revenge" by GR for his planned Genesis II TV series. Harold Livingston, as creative producer for the film version, developed this idea.

The huge successes of both Close Encounters of the Third Kind & Star Wars reinvigorates Paramount's dwindling interest is tackling a Star Trek film which they know will be expensive.

GR's contract barred him from interfering with Harold Livingston's screenplay. GR ignores this often, butting heads with repeatedly HL. HL discovers that GR is intercepting his script revisions that GR then rewrites and has the script submitted to the producers at Paramount. Producer Michael Eisner calls HL in a rage over how poorly written his script is. HL asks Eisner to tell him what he so dislikes about the script. When Eisner reads him parts of the script, HL realizes that the changes aren't his but GR.

Harold Livingston quits the project in December of 1977.

Dennis Lynton Clark is brought in to work on the script. DLC has a terrible relationship with GR.

After three tense months, HL returns to the project. He will quit multiple more times.

GR's drinking & drug use is part of the ongoing issues as to why producers & writers are clashing with him.

[Maurice]

[Bud Brewster]

_____________________________________________

Many thanks to both Pow and Maurice for the fine posts above!

Gentlemen, I'm ashamed to admit that I've never given that scene in ST:TMP the careful thought it deserves. So, the questions which Pow proposed, and the answers which Maurice provided, were a delight to read!

I'm impressed. Thanks, guys.
_________________
____________
Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Pow]

Youtube has posted an edited scene from this film: ST: TMP Deleted Memory Wall scene Restored.

We learn that Captain Kirk followed Mr. Spock inside V'ger.

Kirk is attacked by a swarm of crystalline objects that begin to swarm all over his spacesuit. He calls the Enterprise, and the bridge crew orders rescue teams to help Kirk.

Spock shows up and phasers the critters off of Kirk. He tells Kirk that he believes the answers to V'Ger may be here. Kirk responds by asking Spock "Answers to our dilemma or yours?"

Spock tells Kirk that he believes that they are inside a living machine. He then uses his Vulcan mind meld on V'ger. He is then hurled backwards into Kirk, who then grabs Spock, now in a state of shock, and hurriedly returns to the Enterprise.

Sidebar: I liked this scene because it showed that Kirk was more involved in the situation as opposed to him just floating in space outside V'ger and never entering inside it as shown in the finished film.