ALL SCI-FI

[Krel]

I know we've been down this path before, but I foresee an enormous legal quagmire if this came to be.

The matter transmitter works by breaking down the object into energy, transmitting it, then reassembling it at the destination. If it is a living subject, then a legal argument could be made that the subject is killed by the process, and what is assembled at the receiving end is a copy, not the original.

I can foresee individuals, families, corporations, even the government bringing the transmitted individual to court, arguing that it not legally the same person but a copy, as the original was killed on disintegration.

What about the Soul? Does the Soul travel with the transmitted individual, or does it not, as the original was killed on disintegration. Religions and scholars will be buying Pepto-Bismol by the case.

New Story: What would be the be the consequences for both the individual, and society of having no soul? How would a moral person react to not having a soul? How would the person know that they don't have a soul? What happens as society is populated by increasing numbers of people with no Souls.

What is the transmission process, and can the signal be intercepted, or copied? If so, then what would be the legal and social ramifications of having multiples of a person existing?

New story: A prominent Scientist is transmitted and finds himself in an enemy nation, as his signal was intercepted. He wonders why he isn't missed, only to eventually discover when he is freed by commandos that his signal wasn't intercepted, but copied and he is a another version of the scientist. Which is the legitimate scientist, which is the copy? Is neither a copy? How do you determine which is the ligament scientist, as both were reintegrated from the same signal. How would their spouse and family react to having two of the same person? Another legal question.

"Farscape" did an episode where there were two Crichtons existed. The person who caused the two Crichtons to exist insisted that neither was a copy, but rather they were both originals.

In this instance you have two or more transmitted copies, which is the primary copy? What happens to the other copies? Which one has the legitimate claim to the individual's property, legal titles, and job?

New story: Due to convoluted circumstances, there are four, or five of the same person. Each one is taking the others to court, making a play for the property, legal titles, job and life of the pre-transmitted person. Being copies, are they even entitled to legal representation?

David.

[Bud Brewster]

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Brilliant comment, David!

Thank you . . . but please delete it, because your amazing concepts are giving me a headache!

Barring that, here's my reply.

My problem is that I have absolutely no answers for any of your brilliant questions. That's a totally new problem me, because I always have rebuttals for challenging comments like yours!

David, I confess that I'm a "conflicted agnostic" who wonders why God (if He really does exists) allows so much evil and suffering in the world.

But if God does NOT exists . . . then neither do "souls"

Having said that, if people don't have souls, then copy-people — like clones and "transporter duplicates" — are just as legitimate as the originals which predated them.

I would suggest that the court system should decree that anyone who can be medically declared as being "alive and human" should have all the legal rights of any person born in the normal manner.

Perhaps a partial answer to your stated dilemma would be a reply concerning the legal concept of "siblings who are first born".

If two individuals who appear to be the same person materialize in separate teleportation booths in separate locations at ABOUT the same moment, the one who came into existence first is the legal "original".

Yes, I know. This will cause endless legal battles concerning which individuals are "real" and which are "copies".

But if we issue a global mandate which requires all teleportation systems to be tied into the Greenwich Village atomic clock, we'll have data on exactly when an individual was transmitted and when they were materialized!

I know this sounds cruel, but copies who were created microseconds after the original would be deemed as bogus . . . and they'd be destroyed.

If we didn't initiate this strict rule, the world would end up becoming ass-deep in duplicate people, and our global society would degenerate into chaos!
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Krel]

For the purpose of that particular story line, you have to take it as a given that Souls exist, or there is no story. The story could be uplifting, depressing or a horror film. I have to admit that I can only think of depressing and horror scenarios for this concept.

Bud, you bring up another thought and story line. What if the Soul can be proven to exist, and not only be transmitted, but also copied? You could have several individuals walking abound with the same Soul! More Peto-Bismol for the religions and scholars.

Remember the TV show "Quark", where there were two Bettys, Betty I and Betty II.? One was a clone, but neither would admit to being the clone.

This situation is worse...A whole hell-of-a-lot worse.

While there is some genetic differences in clones, there would be absolutely no difference between the multiple transmitter individuals. They would each have exactly the same memories, looks, physical imperfections, same fingerprints, dental patterns, blood make up, brain patterns, the same DNA!

Rock-paper-scissors would be a nightmare! Every game would be a draw. ANY decision based game would be a waste of time.

Maybe if there is some form of time stamp you could tell. But if you start putting the Extras to death, there is going to be hell to pay. There will be video released of the Extras begging and pleading for their lives as they are dragged off to their elimnation. The relatives will be outraged. Maybe the surviving Copy also. There will be protests, riots and civil unrest.

After all, we don't put the second, third and so on born to death. At least not any more that is publicized.

New story: As the Extras are sentenced to death, an underground railroad is formed to help those sentenced to destruction to escape. A new Government organization is formed to hunt down those sentenced to death, and those helping them.

Maybe the Extras could be segregated to an island in the middle of nowhere. That brings up some potential problems.

New story: One the island of Extras, the Extras are plotting their escape, and the replacing of the chosen Copy. But which Extra is going to get the coveted spot? It will a survivor takes all escape story. The sequel will be the chosen Copy fighting for his life against the winning Extra.

What if people would make Copies on purpose?

New story: People with special knowledge and abilities purposely making a Copy of themself to do suicide work. Example, the lab had accidentally released a deadly disease that needs to be destroyed, but the only way to do it, is for someone to go into the lab and activate the incineration device. It could be used in espionage, even crime. Want to get away with murder? Make a Copy, go someplace and be conspicuous while the Copy commits the crime, then eliminate the Copy before he can eliminate you. Of course either way, you have the problem of disposing of your own corpse.

Want to disappear? Make a Copy, kill him and fade into obscurity. That could open a whole new area of insurance fraud and investigation. And depending on how the law has Copies classified, you might not even be guilty of murder! Just fraud.

I need to think of a better term than Copy or Extra for those who have been transmitted.

David.

[Bud Brewster]

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First of all, David, you're a man after my own heart.

The complexity of the concepts you presented are staggering! However, some of your concepts are bit confusing. I suspect you made a few typos that muddled your message. (For the record, I do that constantly and it frustrates the hell out of me!)

Be that as it may, I'll attempt to provide a bit of interesting feedback for to your to ponder. This will seem a bit fragmented, since I'm responding to individual statements.

Here's the first example . . . and remember, we're just having fun doing what Larry Niven refers to as "playing with ideas".

Quote:

They would each have exactly the same memories, looks, physical imperfections, same fingerprints, dental patterns, blood make up, brain patterns, the same DNA!

Absolutely true! That's an important point concerning these "transporter twins". The copies start their new existence as perfect duplicates! But then . . . "life" happens to them.

Here's what I mean.

Quote:

Rock-paper-scissors would be a nightmare! Every game would be a draw. ANY decision based game would be a waste of time.

On this, we disagree.

The moment a transport twin comes into existence, all his personal experiences begin to effect his state of mind — everything from what he had for breakfast to how well he slept last night, including the dreams he had . . . and who he slept with!

My point, of course, is that each "version" of the person (the one who's real or the one who's Memorex) while experience individual moods and opinions which effect every decision and every action he makes — right down to a game of rock-paper-scissors.

The two versions stopped being "perfect copies" the moment the duplicate was created and began having different experiences from the original. As time goes by, the copy will develop his own opinions about everything from art to politics, based on the specific influences he experiences.

Heck fire, I tend to change my own opinions about politics, movies, etc. from one day to the next, depending on new things I've experience and what I learned from them!

Therefore, our two versions of a given person while gradually turn into two distinctly different people as each one lives his own life and experiences different "input" that changes him.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Krel]

A person's actions are going to governed by a lifetime of experiences, education, training and actions. It would take a long time for the Extras to gain enough separate experiences to alter their mental patterns and processes.

Time they won't have if your plan is initiated. Even with separate experiences, certain patterns of action and habits are going to stay the same and they will unconsciously follow those patterns.

So I stand by my point that if they play decision based games with each other, and baring outside influences, that will be an exercise in futility.

However it could make things on Extras Island interesting. And be an advantage among like Extras, it should limit arguments, make group planning, decisions and actions easier.

I wonder how it would be to literally live with yourself.

David.

[Gord Green]

This subject was covered in a couple of STAR TREK episodes, both in the original series and NEXT GENERATION.

I forget the episodes title, but a NG episode was about Riker being duplicated by the transporter and the fact that both Rikers were absolutely identical. The conclusion was that BOTH Rikers maintained their rank, but one would use a different variation of their name and serve on another starship.

The OS episode had Kirk be duplicated, but one was a "good" Kirk and the other a "bad" Kirk. The concl;usion was that they had to be recombined to be an effective person.
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[scotpens]

The Outer Limits second-season episode "The Duplicate Man" covered some of the same ground.

From the Wiki summary:

It is the year 2025; fourteen years previously, wealthy research academic Henderson James had Captain Karl Emmet smuggle a Megasoid to Earth. It is illegal to possess a Megasoid as they are highly dangerous, always thinking about killing unless in a reproductive cycle, which this one now is. When the Megasoid escapes to hide amongst the stuffed exhibits at a nearby space zoo, James, lacking the courage to track it down and kill it himself, has a clone of himself illegally made for the purpose by clone bootlegger Basil Jerichau. Strict guidelines govern the production of these "duplicates", which must be destroyed before vestigial memory renders them indistinguishable from the originals.

Unfortunately, the devious and dangerous Megasoid looked like a man in a big furry chicken suit!

[Krel]

In the ST episode, Kirk was split into two, not duplicated, making them two originals. Not much of a distinction, but it's there. It does show however that the transporter was capable of matter duplication and could be used to duplicate people.

i read an essay decades ago where the author talked about the ST transporter and it's unintended uses. It could eliminate resource shortages. Crewman dies on a mission? Just use the transporter to duplicate him. The poor creman would lose some memories, but they'd still be alive, and I think that they could deal with a little memory loss. Horrible injury? Just use the transporter to make them whole. Not enough medication? Just use the transporter to duplicate as many doses as you need. Old age? Not any more, although keeping memories may be a problem. I believe the animated series touched on this topic.

This would require periodic scanning of people, but that is a minor thing. The data storage would be the problem.

I've read the story the "Duplicate Man" was based on, and most of the OL episode. Naturally there are differences, particularly in the ending.

The Megasoid costume was used as one of the exhibits in the ST pilot "The Cage". The scene showing it didn't make the cut in "The Menagerie", but I've read that you can see glimpses of it in a background cage in the second pilot.

David.

[Bud Brewster]

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Great ideas, David — especially that idea about reversing aging. I think there was a Star Trek: TNG in which the rapid aging of several characters was reversed using the transporter.

TNG also has an episode called Second Chances in season 6 about a transporter mishaps which created two Will Rykers — one which materialized aboard the U.S.S. Potemkin (where he serving at the time), while the original was "bounced back" to the planet below because a transporter error!

The Enterprise discovered him on the planet years later, and he went on to live his own life, separate from the "real" one, after Captain Picard arranged for him to be assigned to the U.S.S. Gandhi.

It just occurred to me that if we wanted to stick with the idea that people have souls which (somehow) stick with the body when it transports, we could use that to prevent the idea of "duplicate people" by stating that a duplicated human created by the transport has no soul . . . and thus materializes dead!

Just a thought . . .
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Krel]

[Bud Brewster]

[Gord Green]

Think of it.

All those individuals shuffled into the computers buffers.
Hundreds of thousands (by Star Trek history ) placed into computer memory.

WHAT IF...They were all re-downloaded at once into the original point of download.

They ALL became physical and under the control of the AI that created them...placed into the Starfleet matrix to overcome the status quo and create the "perfect" versions of humanity by the vision of the AI . Starfleet Captains, Admirals and all the red shirts you could ever need to reform the Universe into it's cyber image of a perfect society!

A revolution of "originals" and "duplicates"....Both with full and total verification of reality of existence at the point of domination!

Where is the place for an individual to place their loyalty?

Who is on the side of right? Who should be the one to endure?
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There comes a time, thief, when gold loses its lustre, and the gems cease to sparkle, and the throne room becomes a prison; and all that is left is a father's love for his child.

[johnnybear]

I remember when I read Starlog #4 in 1980 and always looked forward to seeing the Megasoid in The Duplicate Man after digesting the Outer Limits episode guide. The following year I did get to see the episode and was a little deflated to see this oh so very dangerous creature as nothing more than a furry rooster monster a bit like the one seen in Lost in Space's Forbidden World!!! I found out later it was the same suit slightly altered!

The aliens regenerating into new bodies when they wear out or get injured has been the main idea of Doctor Who, when the resident actor wishes to leave the show a new actor is chosen and slips in next to the original so the cameramen can morph the two guys features into one and then the new guy acts weird with memory loss and emotional behavior problems to smooth over the change for the audience!
JB

[Bud Brewster]

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Nice post, JB! It gave me a funny idea.

If twin brothers were both Time Lords, would their new bodies continue to look alike each time they regenerated?

Just a thought.
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958)

[Gord Green]

BUD QUERIED....