Bud Brewster
Galactic Fleet Admiral (site admin)
Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 17637
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2022 10:04 am Post subject: FEATURED THREADS for 7-8-22 |
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Did you know that the ape-character in Konga had his own comic book? (I guess that would make it a Komic book.  )
Did you know that all the folks who think Altaira’s pets were Krel animal specimens are wrong . . . and I proved it? In two separate, brilliantly written posts.
I dare you prove me wrong.
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Konga (1961)
This frame from one of the Konga comics makes me laugh every time I see it.
The movie has the same effect. Michael Gough is doing real serious research that involves strange meat-eating plants, serums that cause gorillas to grow into giants, and a busty woman who stirs Michael's blood.
Claire Gordon is his helpful and highly qualified lab assistant, an outstanding woman (you might say) who commands Michael's full attention because of her animal magnitism.
Margo Johns is also helping Michael make startling discoveries in the field of simian growth hormones — and she happens to be deeply in love with him. Unfortunately, her most outstanding feature is about a foot above the one that Claire has (and Michael wants).
But Margo dutifully gives Konga his daily shots —
— while Claire proves that even the giant Venus Flytrap in Michael's greenhouse thinks she's a mighty tasty dish.
The climax to this kinky soap opera involves a confrontation between King Konga and Big Ben — which is certainly a original idea for a meeting of two giants!
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Forbidden Planet (1956)
| larryfoster wrote: | "Sometimes the gauges register a little... when the buck deer fight in the autumn or when birds fly over in the spring...".
So, the animals were real... and not as portrayed in that junk novelization! |
Oops, you've got it backwards. The movie provides a big piece of evidence that the animals were fabricated by the machine, but you misinterpreted it. The reference to the gauges and the animals by Morbius was a classic case of foreshadowing.
The fact that the gauges registered power usage when the animals were active doesn't prove they were real . . . it proves they were creations of the machine.
Please reconsider your statement in light of the following facts.
When Morbius is asleep in the lab during the Id monster attack, we see the gauges behind Morbius become more and more active while the machine did what Doc described as "renewing [the Id monster's] molecular structure from one microsecond to the next."
Ditto for the scene in which the Id monster uses an increasing amount of power to get into the lab. More and more of the gauges are shown lighting up.
So, again I submit that the film did a fine job of presenting us with evidence that, in addition to the Id monster, the machine demonstrated its ability to "project solid matter to any point on the planet, in any shape or color . . . for any purpose. Creation by mere thought."
The gentle animals are much better examples of what the machine was built to do than a horrible monster that rips people limb-from-limb.
Yes, the machine was capable of doing both. But that's my point.
It DID do both.
It's important for us to realize that the creation of the animals by the machine -- at Morbius' subconscious request — is the only positive example of the machines intended function. The creation of the animals to bring joy and companionship to Altaira is completely consistent with the way Adams (on behalf of the writers of the script, not the novel) explains to us the true nature of the machine, and what it was intended to do.
If you dismiss the animals as mere descendants of 200,000-year-old biological specimens, you robe the story of a very interesting element that was intended to show us just how well the miracle of the Krell machine was supposed to work.
Hey, here's a bit of irony for us. I'd never thought of this particular argument for the machine-created animals before . . . and it's really the strongest one of all!
Thanks for pointing this out, Larry!
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Forbidden Planet (1956)
First let me say that I'm really enjoying this discussion!
But if I get too carried away, I hope I won't say something that offends anyone. I just love debating ideas, and this discussion is ripe for debatin', guys!
That said, here goes nuttin'.
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Gentlemen, you seem to be working hard to ignore the obvious. Please let me explain.
Larry, one of your main arguments for the idea that the animals are real is your statement about how the gauges register when the birds migrate and the bucks fight. However, there is nothing in the movie that suggests the machine uses the gauges to monitor energy usage from other sources at other locations. The machine was not constructed to measure the energy of flying birds, fighting deer, spaceships approaching Altair 4, and certainly not from erupting volcanoes.
In fact, the movie gives a lecture on the gauges when Morbius shows us that they indicate the energy the machine uses — not the energy the machine detects from other sources. Consider Morbius' demonstration in the Krell lab: he shows Adams and Ostrow that the lowest gauge indicates that the display screen is using a small amount of energy. When he activates the plastic educator, the gauge shows the energy consumption go up just a tad.
It's important for us to understand that these gauges do not display the level of energy the machine detected these devices receiving from some other source — they're displaying the level of energy the machine itself is providing for these devices.
Hell's bells, they wouldn't be very good power gauges if they tried to do both would they? You'd never know if they were measuring the power being used by the display screen in the lab or by a couple of rutting bucks butting heads in the meadow nearby!
I'm afraid you've misinterpreted the comments made my Morbius, making them fit your belief that the animals are real and the machine somehow senses the energy they use when they move around.
Actually, there is one living creature the machine keeps close tabs on: Morbius. That's a very important point.
Here's why.
Originally, the machine was designed and constructed to be attentive to the thoughts of the Krell, and to use its vast power source to convert energy into matter at the request of the Krell's mental commands. Two thousand centuries after the Krell ceased to exist, Morbius suddenly became the soul focus of the machine's attention when his brain power was boosted by the Krell educator.
After 200,000 lonely years, the machine found itself back in business — but with only one customer to serve.
So, since the machine does not detect the usage of energy created by another source, what did cause the gauges to register when the birds flew around and the deer got horny and the C-57-D came a callin' on Morbius and his lovely daughter?
What is the common factor in all three examples?
The answer is obvious, guys. The common factor is Morbius. Dear old Mother Machine is keeping a close eye on her only son, little Eddie. Anything he wants — anything at all — Momma will give him.
Unfortunately for Mother Machine, Eddie is a "low grade moron" (according to the Krell I.Q. indicator), so Mom has trouble understanding just exactly what her precious Edward is asking for.
This is the heart and soul of Forbidden Planet's basic concept: a super-powerful machine, constructed by super-intelligent beings, is trying to understand the foggy thoughts of an inferior creature whose brain is barely strong enough to send mental requests that can activate the machine's amazing abilities.
"Creation by mere thought" is how Adams described it — and he was speaking for the screenplay's writer, Cyril Hume, the "God" of this fictional universe, whose word is law to us mere mortals.
All we're debating about is what Cyril Hume really intended. I'm just trying to use all the clues he provided, so that I can correctly understand what he meant to say.
So, without reading our own preferences into the data (mine or yours ), what are the clues we can use to figure out if the animals are real or fabricated? Let's go back to basics and consider the facts we all agree on.
1. The machine can create any physical object and cause it to appear anywhere on the planet.
2. The machine has a vast power supply to use for this purpose.
3. The gauges in the Krell lab display the power being used by the machine when any of its related components (like those in the lab) are in use — or whenever the machine is creating something out of pure energy.
4. The machine was designed to obey the mental commands of Krell brains who sent it requests for objects to be created.
5. Since the Krell no longer exist, Morbius' brain is the only source of mental commands the machine can detect — but his conscious mind isn't strong enough to fully activate the machine's abilities.
6. However, Morbius' subconscious is strong enough, even though his subconscious thoughts aren't clearly discernible by the machine as specific commands.
In other words, Morbius can NOT consciously command the machine to make monkeys, deer, birds, and tigers. But his subconscious hopes and fears are translated by the machine as important needs that can be fulfilled by objects the machine can create, based on the mental images and strong emotional concerns it receives from Morbius' subconscious mind.
Just to clarify, Morbius' mind is not saying, "Machine, make a tiger." He's just very troubled by a problem that concerns his daughter, and the problem surfaces in his dreams. The problem can be verbalized this way:
"I'm worried about my daughter. The poor girl has no one to play with. Too bad she doesn't have a few pets."
The machine detected this concern, and it responded. It understood enough to realize that friendly animals were needed — and it worked out the details. It's smart enough to do that.
Ditto for the Id monster. When Morbius had a problem on his mind, it affected his dreams. One such problem might be expressed this way.
"Those damn Earthlings are screwing up my life! I wish they'd go away!"
The machine devised a response. In this case, the response ended up looking like this guy.
We know this is how the machine worked, because we see this clearly in the story. For example, we're shown a visible indication whenever the machine is in use: the power gauges. And they provide us with clues that relate to the question of whether the animals are real or not.
The movie includes two spectacular examples of this. Whenever the Id monster is being created, we see the power gauges showing us the colossal amount of energy being used to maintain that ghastly creature's existence.
Picture the scene in which Morbius is asleep in the lab, and his troubled mind begins to dwell on the problem caused by the arrival of the C-57-D. He hates their inference with his work, and he doesn't want his daughter to leave with them when they returned home.
The machine detects his deep concern and begins to deal with it the same way it did when the Bellerophon crew voted to returned to Earth. So, what does it do?
It takes action to get rid of the problem.
But the moment Altaira's scream awakens him, the subconscious "request" to get rid of the men from Earth is no longer being sent to the machine, so the Id monster fades from existence — and the power gauges reflect the reduction in the energy being used.
As I said earlier, the common factor during the times when the gauges become active is Morbius himself. We can clearly see that the gauges register power usage when the Id monster is active.
So, wouldn't that mean the same thing would be true whenever the machine-created animals are active as well?
If I were to write a blues song to describe this situation, it would go like this:
Them dials don't light up 'cause the birds fly!
Them birds fly because the dials light up! 
Therefore, I repeat my earlier assertion: the fact that the gauges are active when the birds migrate and the buck deer fight is proof that these animals are created by the machine — just like the Id monster.
But why did a whole dial become active when the C-57-D approached the planet? You hinged your counter-argument on that point, Larry, so it's up to me to come up with a good explanation, by gum!
Otherwise I might lose this debate. 
We've already established that the gauges are designed to register energy being produced and used by the machine — not to detect the energy being produced and used somewhere else. (The electric meter at my house becomes active when I turn my television on, not when my neighbor turns on his. )
So, why was the machine suddenly using power in response to the approach of the C-57-D?
Gosh, fellas, don't look now, but Chief Quinn actually told us the answer to that one!
Quinn: Sir, we're being radar scanned!
Adams: Can you get a fix on it?
Quinn: No, sir, but it seems to emanate from an area about twenty miles square.
Well, I'll be damned. Mystery solved, just like that.
When Morbius said, " . . . nearly a whole dial became active when your ship first approached from deep space," he was referring to the fact that the machine was using energy to scan the ship!
(Damn, that was too easy . . . )
So, there you have it, guys. I think I've clearly shown that the gauges reflect energy usage by the machine when it performs various functions — including the creation of an Id monster to deal with Morbius' problems, and the creation of playful pets to entertain his daughter.
Doesn't that make a lot more sense than saying the machine uses energy to spy on birds and deer and volcanoes? 
It also accounts for the existence of the fuzzy critters in a manner more logical and consistent with the story than saying these animals were just the hardy ancestors of ancient specimens brought back from a time "long before the dawn of man's history" — especially in view of the fact that the movie never says a word about how they got to the Morbius home.
But it does say all the things I've mentioned to show us that they weren't real.
It's just good story telling that way. Consistent, logical, imaginative, and original.
As I stated earlier, the artificially created animals are an important example of what the machine can do. The story loses an entire level of it's complexity if we miss the fact that the Krell machine is doing so much more than just dismembering people.
If I were writing the story, I'd want it to be about more than just that. And apparently you do too, Larry! In an earlier post, you suggested this:
| Larryfoster wrote: | | We have learned one secret of the great mysterious Krell machine. But, we may not have learned all there is to know of its functions. It can create real objects from individual mental thoughts. But it may possibly also... create from its own artificial intelligence creations - owing to an occasional glitch in its ancient programming. |
If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying the machine might be able to create intelligent creatures as well, right?
I like the concept, but I like the irony even better: you resist the idea that the Krell machine created Altaira's pets because her father wanted her to be happy — and yet you suggest that the machine might also be able to whistle up it's own intelligent creatures with no help from anybody!
But it's a fantastic concept for a sequel. Really! The machine stops the explosion of the reactors, then it simulates the blast we see at the end of the movie (to fool the departing humans).
Afterwards, it uses it's newly acquired self-awareness and it energy-to-matter abilities to re-create living Krell who don't know they are just fabrications of the real thing, made by the machine they themselves invented!
Wow!
And what the hell — while we're at it, let's allow the machine to repair Morbius' injuries and bring him back to life after the ship has left!
I'm actually serious about this. I love the concept! Let's talk about that now, okay?
But first . . . admit it, Larry. Those damn critters are fakes! 
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Is there no man on Earth who has the wisdom and innocence of a child?
~ The Space Children (1958) |
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